Five with Fry

6: Five Things White Women Should Think About in 2025

• Dr. Jen Fry • Season 1 • Episode 6

Share episode

What does it really mean to be an ally in 2025? In this episode of Five with Fry, I sit down with Dr. Victoria Farris to unpack how "Good Girl" conditioning holds white women back from stepping fully into anti-racism work.

Dr. Farris, an expert on social conditioning, breaks down how ingrained behaviors—like the fear of making waves or the need for approval—can lead to silence when it matters most. We explore five critical questions that challenge white women to confront their complicity, embrace discomfort, and align their values with action.

From personal accountability to the risks (and rewards) of speaking out, we dive into what it truly takes to shift from performative allyship to transformative leadership. It’s time to break free from social norms that prioritize comfort over justice.

--
Dr. Victoria Farris is a transformational leadership facilitator and coach working with executive leaders who want to move beyond surface-level DEI efforts and truly create inclusive, high-performing teams. Her approach combines leadership development, strategic alignment, and trust-building frameworks to equip teams with the tools they need for lasting impact. Her research focuses on understanding, from the perspectives of folks of color, what white people can do to disrupt and dismantle systems of racism, and she has developed a framework for effective allyship that outlines an action-based guide for disrupting racism on individual, group, and organization levels. Victoria is also a mother, activist, hypnotherapist, and avid joy seeker.

Dr. Jen Fry:

Friends, welcome to Five with Fry, where five is the magic number, whether it's five minutes, five questions or anything that fits in five. I dive into the big topics that matter, sometimes alone and other times with a friend. From navigating sports conflict to family dynamics, travel, tech, hard-hitting issues and even politics. Nothing and I mean nothing's off the table. This is where curiosity meets conversation, and we always sit at an intersection. I'm your host. Dr Jen Fry of Jen Fry Talks. Let's get into it. Hey friends, welcome to this new episode of Five with Fry.

Dr. Jen Fry:

Today I'm excited because I have one of my friends on who, like I said before, is going to add a little razzle dazzle. So I have Dr Victoria Ferris, who is my partner in crime, and, if you don't know, I'm going to give you a little history lesson. So back in 2019, we were tasked to talk at an NCAA inclusion forum with another gentleman, paul, and I think Victoria can agree that we killed it, and so after that we didn't really talk. I mean, we follow each other on social media but not really talk. And then in 2020, we kind of started to see things were occurring and Ahmaud Arbery occurred and again she and I hadn't talked and she just literally DMs me.

Dr. Jen Fry:

I posted something on Facebook and she DMs me. She's like, hey, would you want to do a webinar just on Ahmaud Arbery and what's going on? And I was like, well, absolutely, and that, I think, has changed the course of history in the last five, five years really. And so from that point, we've done webinars, in-persons consulting, we've done everything, we've celebrated her birthday, like we've done it all. And so, victoria, just give us a little bit about your bio and who you are.

Dr. Victoria Farris:

Who I am. Well, I get to be partners in crime with Jen Fry. It's fun. I can't believe that was five. It's been five years of us doing stuff together.

Dr. Victoria Farris:

I am a former higher ed and student affairs professional that worked a lot of years on college and university campuses working with students, and when you work in higher ed, at some point someone tells you it's time for you to get a doctorate. When are you going to get your doctorate? And then I started hearing you're the only dean on campus who doesn't have a doctorate. So I did what I was supposed to do I am a good girl at heart and I got my doctorate.

Dr. Victoria Farris:

When I was doing my research, I studied the role that white folks can play in disrupting systems of racism in the workplace, and around that time work wasn't really doing it for me.

Dr. Victoria Farris:

There was some challenging stuff going on, and I decided that the research I was doing was juicy and good and that there was a lot that I could do in helping lots of spaces become more inclusive.

Dr. Victoria Farris:

And so I started my own business that was about eight years ago now and have been doing work in the DEI space and adjacent leadership spaces since then. I am a white woman and so I joke that there's not a lot of things I'm an expert at, but I am an expert at understanding how white women get socialized in this world and how we try to keyword, try heal from that social conditioning. And it's really been a wonderful way to spend a bunch of years working with good people and like working with really amazing clients, people who are committed to trying to be the change they want to see in the world, and these days I do a lot of speaking, workshops, coaching around transformational leadership and how we cultivate teams where there is the opportunity for folks to thrive, a sense of belonging, collaboration, engagement and just building. I think that the more we can build really good teams, we can start to see shifts.

Dr. Jen Fry:

I love that and I you know your research on white women, I think, is important because, you know, what we tend to see is white women will come up and say well, what do I need to know about black women? What do I need to know to be helpful? What do I need to know? And the thing we've always said is, like you don't need to know about Black women, you need to know about white women, Because if you don't know about yourself as a white woman, you're not going to be able to help Black women at all, and so I think that, especially you know we're recording this, it's after the inauguration I think everyone's nerves are fried, their hearts are hurting, and when we talked about voting, we talked about, you know, the 92% of black women who came out to vote and how there was just a disappointment in white women showing up for Kamala Harris and how that could have been such a game changer. And so what I want to talk about is what are five things white women need to be thinking about in 2025?

Dr. Victoria Farris:

All right, I did my homework and I made a list. The first thing that, as soon as I thought about this, like the first thing that came up, is we really need to unpack our I call it our good girl conditioning. I think that many white women get taught how to be like the nice white lady because we were taught to be a good girl. You know, good girls work hard. Good girls, you know, are good leaders. They don't talk back, they cross their ankles, they smile a lot, they're polite, right, they're cute, and that doesn't just disappear when we become grown.

Dr. Victoria Farris:

And I really think that a key thing for us to be thinking about is our relationship to our inner good girl and the ways that we were, or weren't, conditioned into being a good girl. I think it ties to our relationship with conflict, our willingness to tolerate discomfort, our willingness to kind of go against the grain or to take up space in spaces that we've been taught aren't for us. I think I noticed that white women don't hesitate to take up a lot of space in some places, particularly places that are absent of white men, but are not willing to take space in other places again, where there tends to be more white male dominated space. So we'll like be the Karen lashing out on a woman of color who's working at the store where we're not getting the refund we wanted or the coupon or something. But when we're in a space where people are making homophobic or racist comments or something else, we don't. That's when we adapt to that good girl Like oh you know, I shouldn't say anything here, I should just tolerate it, not take up too much space.

Dr. Jen Fry:

Well, I mean, I love out the gate. You came out strong, just as expected. But what you're saying is completely true of who's in the space will allow the good girl to come out or the good girl to be suffocated, and in some ways the white woman is taking up that, that vacuum that was caused by the man not being there. Because I think about whenever we see these videos of women, just kind of. For example, I'm not sure if you saw most recently there was a situation in ohio where this woman ran, this white woman with her kids ran up to this door, was ringing the bell because she said some guy was after her and how. This guy literally is like, says like, can I help you? And she was like like, leave me alone, I'm done, you know saying all this stuff. And she was like do you live here? And he was like, yeah, she's like. Well, no, me alone, I'm saying all this stuff. And she was like do you live here? And he was like, yeah, she's like. Well, no, you don't. And then she leaves, screaming and screaming help and just screaming at the top of her lungs. And the guy was like in his car, in his driveway, comes up of the white woman and knocks on, you know, knocks on the door and the wife comes out and is like, can I help you? There was someone in the driveway and he was like, yeah, that was my wife. She said she was being chased and all this stuff.

Dr. Jen Fry:

And this woman goes from the like you're not, this isn't your house. Help to like and I was afraid and you know what I was feeling, and puts on this masquerade. And then the woman was like and I was afraid and you know what I was feeling, and puts on this masquerade. And then the woman was like and you could just said, hey, that's my house. And the guy was like but I literally said it and you told me it wasn't and how she switched from being like this like aggressor of like this isn't your house, leave me alone to like. You could have just said this because her head, her husband, was now present. Leave me alone to like. You could have just said this because her husband was now present. Right, and what does it look like to be the good girl and then to not be the good girl, depending on who's in the space with her? Yep.

Dr. Victoria Farris:

Completely, completely. And what? What role are we willing to take on depending on those situations? Yeah, absolutely yeah. I think our inner good girl gets in the way of a lot of really important conflict or discomfort or growth. Because it is a self-protective way, right, that we can just still feel good about ourselves. Right, because, like I'm just being a good, nice white lady, which means I don't really have to challenge outside of my comfort zone.

Dr. Jen Fry:

Yeah, and another thing that she had said was like, like the husband and wife were like but you said this and you did this, and then she was like you're not mad at me, are you? Right now it's like I am the victim, like you're not mad at me, and how the role switch, switch so fast when her husband was there because she was like you don't live here, and then it becomes that you're not mad and it's that fascinating interplay of now and the good girl you're yelling that.

Dr. Victoria Farris:

It's wild. I haven't seen that video I'm going to have to look it up because that but it sounds like it sounds true. It sounds true to my own life. So many things I've seen before the ways that I was taught.

Dr. Jen Fry:

Yep. So now number two what do you got for us?

Dr. Victoria Farris:

Number two if not me, then who? Because I think again there's a lot of mental gymnastics that go into oh, I should really speak out about X, y or Z social issue. But who am I to say anything? And what if I say the wrong thing? And maybe I shouldn't take up too much space and maybe I should this and maybe I should that, and all the like hamster wheel thinking that leaves us ending up saying nothing. And to me that hamster wheel is all about fear of like what if I say the wrong thing, or what if I step in it, or what if I make a mistake.

Dr. Victoria Farris:

And I'm super lucky because one of my key mentors, dr Kathy O'Bair, really early on I was like you know, but who am I to like, say X, y or Z? And she just invited me to flip that. Every time I heard myself ask who am I to flip it to, who am I not to? And so instead of saying like, well, who am I to speak up about? You know, racism, who am I not to speak up about racism? And it means that sometimes people are like actually this wasn't me to spiral and thinking that I shouldn't even try. White women who care about a lot of things, who stay quiet because we think again, we don't take up too much space, we're being good girls, um, but somebody else will do it. And my, my thought is like okay, so then who? If you're sitting back thinking somebody else is better suited, name them, point to them what are they, ask them, invite them, but chances are you have something to offer here.

Dr. Jen Fry:

One thousand percent. And when we think about the fear of like but not me, what we then will see is that when people do step up, there's a silencing mechanism. You're not, you don't know enough, you shouldn't be speaking up, and now it's trying to silence other people from doing the work that now they probably feel guilty that they didn't do. And so, if not me, it's kind of the idea of it's definitely not gonna be you, right, if I'm not doing it, I don't want you doing it, because now how do I look that I didn't do it and you decide to step up to do it. And so what do we see then? Is we see the interplay with Black women who step up, and there's a silencing component because I don't want you stepping up, because I dare not step up. And so what does that mean? If well, not me, I shouldn't be doing it. What does that mean? That is then tolerated and accepted, if not me, yep, yep, and accepted if not me, yep, yep.

Dr. Victoria Farris:

And I think it demands us to be accountable, that you know. So wait, if I'm saying, no, it's not me, you should do it, then I have to own that. I'm saying, oh no, actually Black women should bear the weight of disrupting racism at all times. And then when I really get clear about that, like that doesn't actually make any sense, right, and so for me it's like another way of thinking about it, that that draws some self accountability.

Dr. Jen Fry:

Yeah, and to say right, instead of saying I'm sorry you feel like I hurt your feelings, I'm sorry I hurt your feelings. That level of accountability, it makes people so uncomfortable. Right, I'm sorry you feel that way. I'm sorry if you think I did this. No, I'm sorry I hurt your feelings and, like you said, it's this thing of well, I just don't think I should do it. No one, nothing is going to change with that type of thought process. I just don't think it should be me. Well, who, if we have all these people, who do you think it's going to be? It's going to be the Black and brown, the disabled, the queer, like that's who you're going to now put more weight on because you're uncomfortable with making someone a little bit uncomfortable. That there's. Just it's not equitable, it's not fair at all.

Dr. Victoria Farris:

Yep, yeah, couldn't agree more. Put some skin in the game, some skin in the game.

Dr. Jen Fry:

Okay, number three, what do we got?

Dr. Victoria Farris:

Well, number three is a little long lines of putting skin in the game. What am I willing to do about the things and people that I say I care about? Oh, ouch, Okay, Say more. Well, you know I love to say allyship has consequences that you know.

Dr. Victoria Farris:

The other day I was, I was thinking about the word protect. You know we were having this discussion about like what's our responsibility to protect students in educational settings or whatever, and like we use these really big, sweeping words and ideas like protecting people and allyship. But what, what does that actually mean? Like when you say you're going to protect trans folk, how, what does that mean? What does it look like? And I think that there's a misnomer that people just like spontaneously jump in the street and get arrested, say in civil disobedience, or like, do these things like really impulsively, like politicians a filibuster like these are really well thought out, planned consequences that people take strategically.

Dr. Victoria Farris:

And for me, number three is about like, what am I willing to do and in a really real nuts and bolts, honest way, am I willing to put my job on the line? Am I willing to tolerate discomfort at the local school board meeting or the PTA or in my kid's classroom? Am I willing to tolerate discomfort at a family function? Am I willing to give more money that I'm comfortable with to organizations that matter? Am I willing to go to a protest? Am I willing to give more money that I'm comfortable with to organizations that matter? Am I willing to go to a protest? Am I willing to watch other people's kids so they could go to a protest? Am I willing to donate to mutual aid or bail funds? I could keep going, but there's so many ways that we can take action to do the things that we say matter to us.

Dr. Victoria Farris:

But again, I think we we being white women just think this stuff kind of happens, and because we've not had to be strategic in a lot of ways to navigate spaces and places, we underestimate how strategic other people are. And so, for me, I think that one of the key things white women need to be thinking about right now is like what am I actually willing to put on the line in order to protect the things that I say I want to protect, or to be in alignment with the things that say matter to me?

Dr. Jen Fry:

Yeah, and when we think about what am I willing to lose? So much of what they're afraid to lose is such low stakes. Well, I just don't want, you know, my friends to think about me as not being this or I don't want my this person to be upset with me and it's really like, when you think about the grand scheme of things, it's such low stakes and it's hard to explain. Like, if you're afraid of low stakes stuff, stuff, you're not going to be with us with the big stake stuff, the stuff that, like things are really being put on the line. Fear is palatable. Like you're not going to be prepared for that because you're more worried about debbie not being upset with you and inviting and you not being the only person not invited to her birthday.

Dr. Jen Fry:

Like you're so worried so you would rather have people saying horrible stuff around you because you don't want to have to explain why Debbie didn't invite you to her birthday. Like you like it versus being like, yeah, debbie didn't invite me because I'm not with that shit. Like she ain't about to say that around me. That that idea of being ostracized from a friend for doing the right thing is so hard for people that they'd rather just take, take, take all this horrible stuff and kind of be like but I'm not like that, that's not me. I know I hang around that, I know, I know, I know, but I'm not that person. And what's the old saying If there's nine Nazis at a table and one person that's not, there's 10 Nazis Like you can't sit there and act like you're in a silo and you allow the people to say the worst things around you.

Dr. Victoria Farris:

Yep, and I think we get sold this idea that, like people get fired really easily and not to say that in some places and spaces that's not true, because for sure it is. And also, like I know, I grew up with this idea that I needed to, like, keep my head down and work hard and be quiet and don't ruffle feathers because otherwise you'll lose your job. And the reality is is like white people are not losing their jobs in droves for ruffling feathers. Now I will say that the one exception I've seen to this recently is around Palestine. It's the first time since I've been doing this work that I've seen white folks losing their jobs for speaking out, and largely that's not a thing that happens all the time, and I'm not saying everyone should put their jobs on the line either, but what I am saying is that some people can risk it because they have more protection.

Dr. Victoria Farris:

If you have tenure. I mean you work with a lot of student athletes. I think so often about Mizzou. I mean that was a bunch of years ago now, but when that football team took the knee and put a game on the line, massive change happened because they understood the power they had collectively right, and I think that those situations exist far more than we like to think that they do. And, frankly, if you can afford, if you own three homes, maybe you can afford to put your job on the line and actually take a stand and say things that other folks that you work with can't. So I think that I wish that white women were more willing to be honest with themselves about what they were and weren't willing to put on the table and risk and why.

Dr. Jen Fry:

Also, let's be honest, a lot of white women have heard how their friend group talks about other white women who do the work, and they don't want to be talked about that way, because they've done the talking about right. They have sat there and talk crap about joni and sarah doing all this, so they know if they start doing it, they're going to be talked about in the same way, because they've seen it and done it themselves. And so instead I know I should be doing that everything aligns with my values, but I've been it and done it themselves, and so instead I know I should be doing that Everything aligns with my values, but I've been doing and talking about this way. I know I will be the next victim and I don't want to be the next victim, so I'm just going to keep my mouth shut, yep.

Dr. Victoria Farris:

Oh, you're hitting on it right there, Jen. It is so true. If you're in spaces where that's the norm, already you know what's going to happen when you're the one that's on the outside of the group, and all I can say is like we don't have to stay in spaces like that. Friends, it's never too late to decide to have friends who don't talk shit about other people, especially other women.

Dr. Jen Fry:

You know it's interesting when I think about like religion. So I have a friend who had a horrible experience. She was like working as like a youth pastor in the church, horrible experience with this. I was about to say rabbi, with this pastor who was like sexually harassing her, was being horrible. And whenever I think about people in the church, how hard it is to leave. She explained that when she like pressed charges against this guy, everyone who knew how bad he was was still telling her don't do it, you're gonna lose your job. And they were kind of ostracizing her. And when she decided to leave the church she completely was ostracized.

Dr. Jen Fry:

And the thing about it is that it's not only the church, it's your friends, it's your family, it's your kids, friends and families, it might be the school you go to, it's all of those things entangled that you're worried about, where it's like this thing is completely suffocating me and I can't in a healthy way still be there. I can't work at this place where the boss is sexually harassing me. I can't do like and then come home and help my children grow like. I can't do that and I see so many women, especially white women, are in these confines where they know they need to step out, speak out, whatever it is.

Dr. Jen Fry:

But what is it like? The um, the cage bird? They, they just don't know how to get out of it. Because the hardest step, the hardest step, is always the first step, always, always, always. The first step is so we've talked about. The first thing that you have to do is so scary your heart is is pumping a million miles an hour. You're shaking like the. It's not after, it's the first thing, and you know what you are going to lose. And it's about still doing it anyways, because you have so much to gain, completely, completely.

Dr. Victoria Farris:

And I mean this is kind of leads right into the next one, number four, which is how am I benefiting from the status quo?

Dr. Victoria Farris:

Because I think that to me that's the flip side of what you're saying, jen, like there's a reason why I'm telling you you should stay in this toxic environment instead of taking the risk of, like, quitting or filing a report or whatever. And and I think we need to be more honest about how am I benefiting from the status quo? Because if I'm afraid of you reporting this pastor or the boss or whatever, there's a reason and it's because there's a part of me that knows that something that good that I have is going to be disrupted. And I think we need to be honest with ourselves about it, because we are benefiting. We are benefiting and I think that white women are really, really, really great at noticing when the patriarchy takes away our rights and we do a really crappy job at noticing all the ways where the patriarchy and white supremacy, patriarchy keeps us close and proximate to power patriarchy keeps us close and proximate to power.

Dr. Jen Fry:

100%. The proximity to power is a hell of a drug. You feel like you can touch it. It is a hell of a drug that will keep you going and you are gaining stuff from it. It is what it is and people can argue you, you are gaining something from it. And so how do we get people to understand that you are going to keep gaining something from it and at one point, all of those things you gained you're going to lose because of the same thing that you thought you were because you're in proximity to that was going to protect you. It makes me think about this article and we'll put it in the show notes. Look at me having show notes. I'll put it in the show notes.

Dr. Jen Fry:

And it was like this Newsweek article about alt-right wives who were complaining about how bad their husbands treated them. They literally were writing about how their husbands were abusive physically, literally were right about how their husbands were abusive physically, mentally, were like sexually harassing, like all these things. They were so mad that their husbands, who talked about and treated black and brown and queer folks horribly, that they then were being treated just as bad. Right, because they thought, well, I'm close to power, I'm close to this. You know patriarchy I'm not going to be treated that way. I'm going to be lifted above, even though I see how they treat all other women. I'm going to be put on a pedestal. And then they had the realistic awakening that they were being treated just as bad as everyone else and they were pissed off about it. And so, yes, patriarchy is making it sexy, because now we're both able to talk about this group like trash. But because of patriarchy, at some point you're going to be treated just as bad as everyone else, yep.

Dr. Victoria Farris:

Yep, and I think we got to get clear about why we're staying loyal to this system that is harming us and is harming people we love and care about. And so what's the benefit I'm getting here? Because I think once we're honest about what the benefit is, we can also be creative in finding that elsewhere. Right, the idea that the only power that there is in this society is in proximity to white men is such a bogus construct because the actual power lies in solidarity and if all of us gathered together in community and solidarity and on the same page and working together, we're far more powerful than even like a handful of billionaires sitting in a cabinet somewhere in Washington. You know, and I think it's just an important thing to start to get honest with how am I benefiting and where can I get those benefits elsewhere?

Dr. Jen Fry:

Absolutely. And the last thing, number five, okay how am I complicit?

Dr. Victoria Farris:

When do I bury my head in the sand? When do I play along because I don't know what else to do? Or I say I don't know what else to do. When do I stay silent?

Dr. Victoria Farris:

You know, I there's this really great book. It's called I will put it in the show notes it's called White Women Everything, you, something, everything we Know About your Racism and what to Do About it. I get the title right, but there's a line in there where they do these dinners, they host these dinners, and at some point some white woman always gets up when the conversation gets tense and says, oh, I'm going to go get some more rolls out of the kitchen or I'm going to go get another bottle of wine, right, and it's like it even it called me on my shit, jen, because I'm like I do that. I love to get up and get some wine when the tension starts to get thick over a topic, right, and that's a way that I become complicit.

Dr. Victoria Farris:

How am I opting out of conversations or avoiding conversations that matter? Or avoiding conversations that matter? Because I think that it's real easy to sit back and point out other people's racism. It's easy for a lot of white women to sit back and talk shit about Trump and the right and the this and the that and the MAGA and, like baby, you're avoiding conversations about racism in your school district, family, partner, work, church, synagogue, fill in the blank. So I think that we need to do a better job of being about ourselves. You said that right out the gate, like if I'm more curious about, like what do I need to know about other people? You don't. It's what I need to know about myself. And if I'm paying attention to what I need to know about myself, I think how am I? Complicit is a key part here, because I think that the desire to point out other people's bullshit is a great distraction from noticing my own.

Dr. Jen Fry:

Well, and I think not only how are you not interested in being in conflict, but how are you also stopping other people from engaging it? And people don't think about that. And how it shows up. It shows up in you know the two daughters arguing about a hot topic. Girls, stop it at the dinner table, let's not talk about. Let's have a nice dinner. Don't ruin it. Right, like this language. Don't ruin a nice dinner. We haven't seen each other. Right, like this language. Don't ruin a nice dinner. We haven't seen each other.

Dr. Jen Fry:

And so now you are actively suppressing conflict. Anytime it happens, y'all stop talking about that topic. You know it gets, it gets hard in here. We just let's be nice. This is a nice dinner. This is our first time. And reiterating nice, nice, nice. Don't ruin the moment, right? So now I've been trained that if I bring up this topic, I'm ruining moments, I'm ruining relationships. Well, I'm not going to say anything. And my mom, bless her heart, carol Frye, was a white woman and she was, like I always say she would jump a moving car to stop conflict, like she would do everything possible. And so what does that mean? That people can't dialogue and grapple in those hard topics? Now, if they can't do in the family, they're not gonna be able to do them out in other places, and so we see that a lot of time. It's not only I'm not willing to engage in the conflict, but I'm also damn sure making sure you're not going to engage in conflict around me.

Dr. Victoria Farris:

Exactly Like I can't even tolerate sitting next to a conflict, let alone being in it, exactly.

Dr. Jen Fry:

Like I can't even tolerate sitting next to a conflict, let alone being in it. Oh, I have to. And I, I call them like the jump inners, I am super manning into that conflict. Whoa, whoa, whoa. This is making me uncomfortable. That's not right. And now it's not about the conflict, it's about me. I don't like this topic. I don't like where it's going. Can we please stop arguing? We it hasn't been we, it's been them. But you are uncomfortable. So you're placing yourself in the middle to stop it all. Because now it's going to be uncomfortable that Victoria and I are arguing. There's someone in the middle and we're like trying to look around Like you can't do that. It's literally effectively stopping it all.

Dr. Victoria Farris:

That's right. And so again, how, if I'm a person who's doing that, supermanning a conflict I think you just called it how am I benefiting from it? How am I benefiting? Because there's a way that I'm benefiting in all of that right and that I'm complicit in it and participating and not letting it happen. I just think these are the things we got to be thinking about. I think we've got to build our self-awareness and our self-honesty in radical ways, because the world isn't going to change because we say we want it to.

Dr. Jen Fry:

So repeat the five again for them, okay.

Dr. Victoria Farris:

Number one we need to think about our good girl conditioning and our relationship to it. Number two if not me, then who Getting honest about? Why not me? Number three what am I willing to do about the things and the people that I say I care about? Number four how am I benefiting from the status quo? And number five how am I complicit?

Dr. Jen Fry:

I love these. I think these are really instrumental in helping someone change and think about themselves on a deeper, more nuanced level, which is what we want. We can't create change unless we know ourselves. We would have so many blind spots that'd be painful. So where can people find you on the intranet and give me cool events or webinars coming up?

Dr. Victoria Farris:

They can find me on Instagram at DroriaFerris, and online at VictoriaFerriscom. I have a transformative leadership circle that kicks off this month. So, depending on when this airs, if you're interested, let me know, and we always squeeze you in late. It is for women leaders who want to build their skills in transformative leadership, build their vision, build their capacity, build their confidence to show up to lead with courage in this particular moment.

Dr. Victoria Farris:

It's going to be running over the next six months and the only thing I want to add, jen, is like, as we're doing this self-inquiry and these, you know, questions and reflections, I think it's really important to to like wrap it all up in self-compassion. None of this is my fault. Up in self-compassion. None of this is my fault. This is all like the reasons we have to ask ourselves these questions as white women is because of the same system, right? This isn't like, oh, a character default in Victoria Ferris. This is the way that white femininity operates in this country, and so, just a gentle love that it's not your fault, but it is our responsibility to unpack what we've been given and to do something different with it, moving forward.

Dr. Jen Fry:

Oh, this has been great. I always appreciate you. I love the shit out. You, friend, love you. Um, this has been great. We're going to add that stuff to the show notes if y'all want it. Um, but please follow her at Dr Victoria Ferris, cause you'll get such great, enlightening stuff that will help kind of stiffen up your spine. Well, friends, that's it for this episode of Five with Fry your dose of five insights, ideas and inspiration. If you love what you heard, don't forget to head over to where podcasts are played, to subscribe, share and leave a review. Got a topic you want us to tackle? Drop us a message. We love to hear from you. You can come follow me on IG, twitter, the TikTok at Jen Fry Talks, or join me on LinkedIn. Look for me at Dr Jen Fry. Until next time, stay curious, stay bold and keep the conversation going. See you on the next Five with Fry.