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Five with Fry
Think of this podcast as your go-to for tackling the hard stuff with clarity and confidence. On Five with Fry, Dr. Jen Fry breaks down the rules, challenges the norms, and dives deep into the tough conversations that shape our lives—conflict, culture, family, sports, tech, and everything in between. This is where you learn to rely on yourself, embrace the messy, and come out stronger on the other side.
Five with Fry
26: Five Truths Every Sports Parent Should Hear (Even if Don’t Want To)
What happens when a mental performance coach and a conflict and culture expert, who is also a former athlete and coach, team up? You get a real, raw conversation about youth sports that every sports parent needs to hear, whether they want to or not.
In this episode of Five with Fry, Dr. Jen Fry sits down with mental performance coach Dan Mickle to unpack five uncomfortable truths about youth sports and the role parents think they’re playing (vs. the one they actually are). From the pressure that sneaks into dinner table conversations to the myth that confidence can be gifted through compliments, this episode pulls no punches.
Dan and Jen dive deep into how well-meaning parents often (unintentionally) derail their child’s development by making their kid’s athletic journey a second chance at their own. They explore why the ride home matters more than the game itself, why struggle is essential, and how the youth sports system prioritizes profit over athletes.
Remember: it’s not about you. And sometimes, as Dan puts it, “Your kid just isn’t that good right now.” Oof. But also? That truth might be exactly what helps you show up better for them.
Whether you’re a parent, coach, or athlete, this one’s a must-listen.
Follow Dan at @RealDanMickle and check out his podcast at mentalcast.com.
Friends, welcome to Five with Fry, where five is the magic number, whether it's five minutes, five questions or anything that fits in five. I dive into the big topics that matter, sometimes alone and other times with a friend, from navigating sports conflict to family dynamics, travel, tech, hard-hitting issues and even politics. Nothing and I mean nothing's off the table. This is where curiosity meets conversation, and we always sit at an intersection. I'm your host. Dr Jen Fry of Jen Fry Talks. Let's get into it, friends. Welcome to the newest episode of Five with Fry. This is Jen Fry.
Dr. Jen Fry:Today we have a phenomenal episode with one of my nemesis, if you must, the villain in my stories, if you must. We are going to be talking with Dan Mickle, mental health, mental coach expert, who is, I got to say, always a nemesis. So Dan and I met I mean, this has been over 10 years and I feel like our relationship began when he was kind enough to loan me his PowerPoint clicker and, as a normal Jen Fry moment, I lost it and failed to tell him I lost it and I think for the next like month or two he was looking for that thing. I mean, it was probably. I mean looking manically for this clicker and happenstance we are.
Dr. Jen Fry:I don't know. We were talking and he mentions he's been looking for this clicker and I mentioned oh yeah, I lost it. And so that's where our relationship really dove off the deep end. He also was one of the people that harassed me throughout my PhD and the reason why I finished in three years because his harassment was so strong of me me. But he is a dear friend of mine, he does amazing work in the mental coaching space and he is now on his own PhD journey, so I get to do my harassment back right at him. So, dan, tell us about yourself and what you do, friend.
Dan Mickle:That's a pretty loaded question. First thing I figure out are you Sherlock and I'm Moriarty, or am I Mori or my Sherlock and you're the Moriarty, or am I more or my Sherlock and you're the Moriarty in our story?
Dr. Jen Fry:I feel like I'm the Sherlock.
Dan Mickle:All right. Well, first, thanks for having me. But yeah, I'm a sports psychology consultant, and I choose those words carefully because until you have your PhD and your licensure, you can't call yourself a sports psychologist, regardless of education that you have. So I'm a consultant, or a mental performance coach is what I prefer to go by. I'm also a Division III volleyball coach, which is how this all started, you know, always learning and kind of going down this track. So, yeah, I'm currently working on my doctorate in health sciences and I'm focusing on coaching considerations for neurodivergent populations. So I want to work with, I think, adhd and ADD and athletes on the autism scale are underrepresented and we don't know how to coach them. So that's kind of what I'm focusing on, which is tough because there's not a lot out there.
Dr. Jen Fry:And that's why you are the genius who will be adding your research and information to it.
Dan Mickle:I hope so, I hope so.
Dr. Jen Fry:You will be. His better half is also running for the education board.
Dan Mickle:Yeah, she got fed up with the. She wants to take the politics out of school boards. So she got fed up with how our local school board was being run and won her primary, and now she faces off in November against the board president and incumbent.
Dr. Jen Fry:Oh shit, I mean just let Terry know I can fight Like so. If she needs that, I'm a quick drive up.
Dan Mickle:I will. I will. We might need some muscle.
Dr. Jen Fry:Boom, I'm there.
Dr. Jen Fry:So, let's talk about. You know, when we were chatting back and forth about what the title should be, I think it's really important, because the information that you can give to not just athletes, but their parents is so crucial. Parents are so involved in youth sports right now. They are not just overly involved, but running all facets of the ship, and so there is a lot of information that they need to know, that they might not know, that they need to seek out. So what we're going to be talking about in this episode is five truths every sports parent should hear, even if they don't want to. So, dan, let's start off. What is the first truth that these parents need to hear?
Dan Mickle:Your child's identity cannot be your second chance.
Dr. Jen Fry:Okay, oh, you came out hot and spicy today. Okay, okay, say that again. Let me hear what. Let's hear what you're talking. Break that down, oh man.
Dan Mickle:So it's your child's identity cannot be your second chance, and you know it really comes down to a lot of parents unknowingly put their hopes or unfinished goals on their kids, whether it's sports that they loved or chances that they missed out on. It just creates this invisible, unseen pressure on the athletes and the kids, and the journey belongs to the athlete and not to the parents. And I think one of the key things and this is what's interesting is when I say unknowingly, because I think I truly believe that a lot of parents don't realize they're doing it. It comes across as motivation, trying to motivate them. Oh, when I played, I did this, or, and they're doing as motivation, but it's not received that and and and you as a communication expert know like it's not always just how it's sent, it's how it's received as well, and if we're not aware of how that's being received, that's an issue and I think a part of that is they'll kind of add on.
Dr. Jen Fry:If I had growing up what you had, then I would have done ABCDE yeah, you know, my, my mind's kind of blogged.
Dan Mickle:I can't. I can't think of it right now of which bias or, um, you know, fallacy that would be. But there's this feeling that we only think about all the things that have improved. Like you said, if I had these tools I would have been so much better. But we also don't bring in all the new stressors that this generation has Just bringing in the fact that, oh, if I had those tools I would be able to do that, forgetting about all the other stuff that comes along with this generation.
Dr. Jen Fry:They almost silo it off. They almost say like if I had these tools back in that time. But like you said, with the tools you can't separate the tools of now with everything that comes with it. It's a, it's a package.
Dan Mickle:Yeah, yeah it's, and it's not exponential either. I don't think. I don't think the advancements for good pace as the struggles and the stressors that we have. I feel like the stressors probably grow at a higher pace than the advancements do 100%, 100% they do.
Dr. Jen Fry:Okay, what's the second truth that these parents need to hear? Pressure is louder at home than it is on the court.
Dan Mickle:Expand on that.
Dan Mickle:I think we we tend to think that the coach and the game day atmosphere is where all the pressure actually happens.
Dan Mickle:But the pressure that really lingers and sticks with these athletes is what we hear in the car ride home, at the dinner table, and it often feels like an evaluation. It's not a talk, it's not a recap, it's an evaluation. And that kid starts to feel those pressures of making mistakes at home and I think part of that's because we walk into the gym or the game environment or the field and we expect it to be loud, we expect our coach to be barking commands. We don't expect to have those conversations in our safe place of our home and at our dinner table or the car. I know it's cliche and we see it online all the time. About the car ride home should only be I love seeing you play and all of that, but we forget that there's a lot more like, there's a lot more time at home, that that should continue on to the dinner table and to the you know the different aspects of home, cause that really is an athlete safe space and now we're invading that and kind of creeping into that safe space.
Dr. Jen Fry:I would, even more so, add that there's become a danger in parents having to know everything that is then added onto that. We were a part of this Facebook group and we see any small thing that coach does. A parent needs to understand why that coach does. A parent needs to understand why. Well, my daughter's team was up by, was up 18 to zero, and she went on a 10 point run of scoring and the coach subbed her out. Why would he do that? And they have to know every nuance of it.
Dr. Jen Fry:When now they have this information, in a way, they're kind of dangerous because now they're using it when they're talking to their kids, and their kids, like you said, they don't have a breathing room. Everything now is about the sport also adds on and I'm not sure if you'll talk about, but the money part. So now the money part is added on to this pressure at home, what we see all the time. Well, I paid all this money, so I expect this. My kid is a amazing athlete but doesn't want to do anything. How do I get them motivated? I spent all this money on private lessons on this, this. How do I get them to do this?
Dan Mickle:You hit on one that really triggers me and it's the the. I spent all this money so I should have input and I mean give me a break. Like you buy Pepsi, and it's not like you're helping them develop the formula for their taste. You buy your internet from Comcast or Verizon but you're not deciding what the infrastructure is on that. There has to be a point where you realize that you're paying for a service and you have to trust what comes with that. And I think that goes much deeper, as you know, like communication and trust. And those questions come because no one's having the hard conversations in the beginning to get to know each other. Like if I'm in the middle of the seat and I'm asking why my kid's getting benched or what the coach is doing, then it's more a fault on me for not having those conversations with the coach and understanding what that community is like you know, I agree with you on the paid thing.
Dr. Jen Fry:It gets me as well, because what we see is that they equate. For them the only thing that is worth the money is them paying claim. That's the only thing. Nothing else matters. The skill development doesn't matter, the relationships, the teamwork, nothing else matters If that kid is not only on the court but is on the court in the position the parent wants them to play, with the amount of playing time the parent thinks that they deserve it.
Dan Mickle:It never ends right like it starts with well, they're not even playing. I, I get that. I can get that argument. I, I can ride along with you with I'm paying thousand dollars and my kid's not touching the court at all. But then when we start getting into the playing time and playing minutes, or not getting set or not getting the ball, like no, it's just we're not going on there, like it just can't happen, but yet it does, like it, you know, and then inevitably it's well, I'm going to leave and go somewhere else where I'm going to start my own, and then they realize how hard it is. So I think I just don't think parents recognize the power that their words have outside of the gym.
Dan Mickle:If I'm a kid and I try to be very careful with as a parent with this I want to say things that are volleyball related when we're in the volleyball environment, and I try not to say it when we're not in the volleyball environment, because it has a different impact. Right serving was a little bit off today and I'm saying that courtside or in between matches at a tournament or a multi-day event, or even at the hotel later that night, has a different feeling than if we're sitting at the dinner table on a Sunday and I'm like I thought your serving was off yesterday Like one hurts, I think, a lot more than the other one does, but we don't realize it because we think it's coming from a place of good and it's not well, 100, and I think, like you said it, it breaks that level of safety and it makes that kid now feel like they just have to be on guard all the time.
Dr. Jen Fry:Because what were you saying?
Dan Mickle:I was just gonna say right, and and who do they go to if? If we are, as parents, like their safety net and we've just violated that, where are they going to turn to? They're going to turn to TikTok and social media and strangers, and it's just so all interlinked. But no one wants to look at it that way.
Dr. Jen Fry:A hundred percent. It's interlinked and in the reality of the situation two days later at dinner is saying that your serving was not good, going to have any benefit, and that's the thing that sometimes I don't think about. Is there a benefit? It's not in the moment, it's two days later. They maybe forgotten about how bad it was and now you're bringing it back up right to what. Do you think the outcome is going to be? It's not going to probably be positive.
Dan Mickle:No, no, nope. And one of the biggest things that I work on when I'm working with athletes is we have to make sure that we reflect on the emotional part of what we're doing in the moment. You know, if I have a player that likes to journal, I want to make sure they journal right after the game or the match so they bring the emotion to it, because the emotions fade Right when I look back at a Saturday that I played and I think about how my performance was. It's usually I did well or I didn't do well, but I'm not thinking about that. I was frustrated or I was having a bad mental moment because of my emotions, but that's what drove a lot of my decisions and how I played, but it's like I forgot about it. So I think that's part of it too. We have these talks days later or giving them space, but we end up forgetting or ignoring one of the biggest parts of it, which was the heat of the moment and the emotion which led me to make those decisions. It wasn't just what was going on X's and O's, there's just more data that we end up forgetting about and and not to go off on a tangent but that's that's what leads me to when I really hate.
Dan Mickle:When I see coaches like oh, I have the 24 hour rule, we can't talk for 24 hours about playing time, like to me, like you're hurting yourself, because probably whatever happened that they want to talk about has the emotional component. And as a coach, I need to figure out do I need to work on this player's emotions? And she's here, she's maybe reading the situation wrong or I'm not communicating well, or is it truly a tactical or technical error that I need to fix? But if I take that space and time and put it in there, the emotion part goes away and then we just end up talking about something that may not be affected at all. We might start working on the technical or tactical aspect of something, but it was the emotional that was causing the issue, but because it happened a day or two ago, we don't even think about it the issue, but because it happened a day or two ago, we don't even think about it.
Dr. Jen Fry:Oh, I like that. No, that. That's such a valid part, and many people don't like to acknowledge how much the emotions are playing a part of it. They, the amount of people who try and act like they, are these emotionless robots. It's like not at all, and that is probably what's also affecting their playing.
Dan Mickle:Absolutely.
Dr. Jen Fry:Absolutely Okay. What?
Dan Mickle:we got for number three. Confidence doesn't come from compliments, it comes from coping.
Dr. Jen Fry:Okay, hit me with that.
Dan Mickle:So telling your kid that they did really good or they're the best doesn't really build their confidence. What does is them learning to face challenges, failing and realizing they can get back up. That's where, like, the real confidence comes from. Because people are misinterpreting mental performance or mental skills or mental coping with learning and learning styles. Like we're confusing, like what Dweck did with growth mindset and how we learn and how our learning environment is, and mixing it into also our emotional component or our emotional intelligence. And while they're related, it's not exactly the same. Like how we want someone to learn a skill or learn something in the classroom with a growth mindset, then is not the same way that we build confidence in that player. So having that open mind and giving them the compliments will help them learn, but in the same token it's not really going to boost their confidence and their motivation.
Dr. Jen Fry:That's a good point. I think about you know we're both small business owners and I think about the best lessons have come from the hardest things. That, like you're not the people who win all the time Don't get the lessons Not at all. It comes when you go through hard stuff, you master hard stuff and you can look back and you're then you're like I did this thing really well, even though I was afraid.
Dan Mickle:Yeah, and and I think I think about like I had a really really rough season this year. Just a lot of things, um, some some drama on the team, um, a really really hard schedule, but then some injuries. So it made a really hard schedule even harder because we just couldn't compete because we weren't full strength. I lose my assistant coach in September, so I'm coaching the rest of the season alone and when I go in for my review, I get a lot of compliment like, hey, it was a tough year but you did real. You know, you worked really hard, the team still stayed together.
Dan Mickle:But that's not what I want to hear, you know, and I think it boils down to that. We feel like telling someone it'll be okay, you had a problem this year or you weren't feeling well, or you didn't get a good night's sleep. Giving them a compliment thinks that we're we're kind of boosting their motivation and stuff. But we're really not. It's just kind of just putting like chocolate over top of like tuna, right like it. It looks like it may be good, but it's it's not. It's not really hiding what's below, and I think we're just constantly putting like band-aids on the emotional state of our players, hoping that they can hold it together until they finally snap or they graduate in their careers over and they never, you know, became what they could have been. It never materialized. Their greatness never materialized because they didn't have all the tools.
Dr. Jen Fry:A hundred percent and I think you know it comes from the stuff I talk about also with conflict of of being able to have these hard conversations with athletes about what they need to work on, why they're not doing certain things Like those tough conversations also aren't, aren't happening. So they've gone, like you said, a whole season where everyone's like you're fine, it's great, and then they have maybe a coach that's a little harder. On having the honest conversations, they don't have the skillset for it. They just go and complain to their parents, complain to their parents, and now their parents are pissed. You hate my kid, you single, where this kid has never learned how to have those types of conversations.
Dan Mickle:Yeah, I forget who said it, but it really stuck with me is everything. Every correction feels like criticism. Currently, any correction you make, a player takes it as criticism and it's not. It's a correction, and that's like one of the very first things I say every year. You know like, hey, look, there's going to be times I'm going to be hard on you. It's not a personal thing, it's because I'm driving home or because it's loud. I'm not yelling because I'm mad, I'm yelling because I want you to hear what I'm saying. You know, hear the message, not the tone. I guess. Right, but again, and that goes with the confidence, I don't know that I've ever seen a group and at some point we have to stop blaming it on COVID because I think it was happening prior to COVID, but I've never seen a group or I hate to say generation Like.
Dan Mickle:I don't want to lump everyone together, but a group where there's just no confidence like, like. And it's weird because I feel like they have confidence in their skill, like, their confidence in their volleyball or their confidence in their baseball or their softball. They have zero confidence in all the life skills around it, and to me it goes back to the myth of everyone talks about. You know, when there's budget cuts and they're thinking about cutting sports, the first thing everyone says is but sports teach us all these things. It teaches conflict resolution and it teaches leadership and communication. Like.
Dan Mickle:No, it doesn't, unless you have a coach or a program and a culture that does like we just expect it like you oh, you played softball in college, so you should be a great manager of this insurance company. Like you know what I mean. Like why is that a thing? And we're just not taking the time and it goes back to that money thing and the playing time of trying to convince parents that there's value in having your kids do breathing and meditation and journaling as part of their two hour practice. That you're paying for is tough because I don't sweat coming out of them, so what benefit are they getting out of them journaling?
Dr. Jen Fry:Yeah, a hundred percent. Now that makes sense. Okay, what you got for us for number four let them struggle.
Dan Mickle:Resilience is built, not inherited.
Dan Mickle:Okay, we're not, we're not born Well. It's tempting to step in when our kids and our players struggle Like no one wants to see that. As a parent or a coach, we hate seeing people struggle, but every time we rescue them we rob them of the chance to learn grit and resilience. And struggle teaches problem solving, perseverance and ownership. I think is is. I think people right away think about you know, when we're stepping in, we don't let players struggle nowadays. It obviously doesn't give them the perseverance and the resilience. But for me the ownership is a big thing.
Dan Mickle:When we step in right away, they don't take ownership of things say more about that well, like if we have certain rules right, like you have to watch two hours of film a week, you have to hit the weight room three times a week. Now you know, we're division three, so our schedules are crazy, so we can't do it as a team most of the time. So when a player gets pulled, or I sub them and they give me the attitude and they're like well, why is she playing? And I'm not, I'm like how much film did you watch? How much time were you in the weight room? Well, I couldn't or I get that, and I'm sorry you couldn't, but she could and she's playing a little bit better o'clock tonight instead of watching film, because I need the rest, which is fine. But you're saying that your rest is more important than the film watching, which again is fine. I want you to be healthy, I want you to be a good student, but it has to come with trade-offs and you have to take ownership of those trade-offs. You can't do it all and, I think, too many times actually.
Dan Mickle:I have a really good example for this, and this is one of the things that I didn't know until my wife got into what she's doing with the school board. We have a cyber charter problem in Pennsylvania and I think it's probably everywhere. Like our school districts are paying astronomical amounts to support kids that don't go to our schools for the cyber, astronomical amounts to support kids that don't go to our schools for the cyber. Like we have to subsidize the cyber schools. What I found out is the highest transfer rate in Pennsylvania for cyber schools are in the months of March, april and May, because the kids aren't doing well in traditional school and probably not going to fit pass or graduate, so they transfer into cyber schools and then miraculously their grades go up and they pass and graduate.
Dr. Jen Fry:No shit.
Dan Mickle:Yeah, and it was like a crazy number Like and and and don't call me like I can't remember, but it was almost like 60% of new cyber students come in in April or may. Wow, and like, out of those 60, 50% are probably going to fail if they stay in their traditional school. So it goes back to the. We're not letting them struggle and then we're just bailing them out. What's that going to teach them?
Dan Mickle:You know, we we seen it for years right With with minority students and underserved students how many people graduated that couldn't read, couldn't do basic math, but it looked good on some metric to pass them. Or we thought that we were helping them out by passing them and not letting them be able to read. And now they're a senior. What do we do? You know there's got to be like this ownership part of it and letting them understand like okay, and the other part of that is maybe there's diagnosis. You know, all three of my kids are ADHD and they were. You know they struggled really hard before they were diagnosed, but now that they are, we know how to cope with it and we can work with it. That's not bailing them out, you know. That's letting them fail, building the resilience and figuring out a solution and now letting them succeed.
Dr. Jen Fry:Bailing them out would have just been letting them pass and hope for the best well, and and we see that a lot in youth sports where my kid's not playing, I'm gonna have them go to another club. Right, that's the. That's what we see all the time. My kid's not playing, they need to go to another club. How, how do you know your kid's going to play at the next one? But for them, that's the remedy.
Dr. Jen Fry:The remedy isn't you just need to keep working hard to be able to get on the court. If nope, we see I mean we see that in college now and there's a lot of F around and find out because people in a situation that would have let them grow and develop, they get in the transfer portal and there's no transferring. I think it was something like 60% of men's basketball either transferred the same level or down, and they're jumping in there because they're not playing, but they're not struggling and figure out why they're not. There's no questions of why am I not playing? What skills do I need to build it's? I'm not playing the amount of time or the position, so I'm just going to transfer and or go to another club to do what I want to do.
Dan Mickle:Yeah, yeah. The thought process is now OK. Well, I'm not playing, so I'm going to transfer here, where I will hopefully play. What it used to be was. I'm not playing now. Two hours a week of practice isn't getting me playing now, so how can I add practice time to get better to play?
Dr. Jen Fry:Right.
Dan Mickle:It's become. How can I get out of here and go someplace that I can play versus? What can I add to get better at what I do so I can play? It's just a swap, right. When I was a club director, there was another local club that opened up and after like five years we just realized we were just swapping players. Every year, the people that were unhappy with them were coming to us. We are unhappy, kids were going to them and then a year later they would all come back and theirs would go back to them, like it was just back and forth. So we ended up merging like it's like this is ridiculous. Let's just figure out how to make them better, but no one you know no one wants to deal with that. Everyone wants that instant gratification.
Dr. Jen Fry:Yeah, yeah, a hundred percent the. There is no. And also, if they're struggling, it has to be someone else's fault. Like every single time, it's always someone else's fault, versus saying my kid's just not good right now, that that and that's okay to say at this point, even the the person playing in front of them when they have a bad game is still better than my kid. They get out and they're afraid to admit that they'll be like well, jen, I have the stats here and jen had five kills but 15 errors, and my kid and it's like your kid's just not that good right now, it's okay like that oh my lord, there's.
Dan Mickle:This is a whole. Nother tangent one for me is the whole. Like my kid works really hard and they should get you. Like, do you think my starter player doesn't work? Like, just because your kid's getting better doesn't mean everyone else in the course thing stagnant. They're also getting better. So, yeah, your kid's working really hard to get that starting position, but my starter's also working really hard to be a starter still. Like the whole, just work equals reward. That's a little crazy.
Dr. Jen Fry:Yeah, I get upset about that too, because it always is well, my kid's been working hard taking private lessons. So is everyone else. Your kid is not siloed and they're the one who's only doing that. Everyone else is just sitting on their hands. There has to be an understanding that sometimes you can work really, really hard and still not be up to par at that time, that you just have more of a learning curve you have to work on than the other person. And they don't want that knowledge. They don't want that idea that their kid isn't that good right now. It has to be a different reason, and the thing I think that always triggers me is when everyone talks about it's politics. At some point everything is in politics. Your kid just isn't that good right now.
Dan Mickle:Yeah, yeah, like it's just oh well, their dad donates to the fundraisers more, so that's why they're playing time, like no, maybe they're just really happy and they're around it a lot and they're excited and they have a positive attitude, so that's why they're donating more, like they're not missing.
Dr. Jen Fry:Yeah, we're not. We're not doing the pay to play right now. Okay, what's the last one to bring it home? What's the?
Dan Mickle:last one I had to end with the cliche one, because I do think this is probably one of the biggest ones is the ride home is where most damage or healing happens. You know, and, like I said, I know it's cliche and we talked about a little bit earlier, but that's either your. That ride home is either your chance to connect the parent and child or really hurt that relationship, and it should be about the love and not the performance and the support. Now, sometimes that is talking about it. You know, when my kid has a rough day or a rough practice, this, I would start asking like, hey, is this a time you want to talk about this or no, like it's on her terms, and she says, yeah, let's talk about, then we'll talk about it, like I don't care that we're in the car, but there again, there needs to be those boundaries.
Dan Mickle:And it's interesting because I don't know there's two thoughts that I have on why it's such an issue, and I don't know which one is worse. Is it because in a car you're in a confined area, there's no escape for that player, there's no way for that player to take a break to get out of it, or is it because typically that car ride happens right after whatever it was you know so. So I don't know what actually triggers it and makes it such hot. Hot box of pain is what I like to call it, because it's never comfortable, it's it's. It's tough to have those conversations, but it's also just hard to have awkward silence. So like, finding that balance in that car ride can be tough.
Dan Mickle:But I think it just starts with anything just and I don't know how you go through all your conflict resolutions. Like one of the things that we do when I work on my team with conflict resolution is just real time permission. Like before we start to have this discussion about what's bothering us, let's ask if we're ready to have that conversation. So for me it would look like if you and I have a beef or we have a problem we're teammates I would say, hey, jen, are you at a point where we can talk about this right now because it's really bothering me? And you have the option to be like yeah, let's talk about it, or no, I'm not ready. I need to collect my thoughts Now. That's not giving you the pass to never talk about it, but for me that's huge, because what good is talking about something if one of the parties isn't ready to talk about it.
Dr. Jen Fry:Yeah, no, a hundred percent. I a hundred percent agree with what you're saying. I think it is both things. I think the first thing is is that you can't get away from me. You don't have teammates to go talk to, line judging getting warm ups. You don't have any. You have nothing else you can do but be in the car with me. So in a way, they are held captive. And I think the second thing about it is is that their parents have not been able to talk to other people about this. So this is their time to kind of rage as well. Right, this is their time.
Dan Mickle:And you're in an environment take everything out of it. Take the sports, take everything out. You're driving a car, like there's television shows dedicated to road rage, so you're already in a situation where it's probably not the best to be getting angry or having this in-depth conversation to begin with. And you know, I think you hit on it. Like teams you're playing, you're working, they have all this, they have no time.
Dan Mickle:And that's the same thing that we run to, like in these forums where they talk about you know all these anonymous posts like if you're going to work, make sure you don't have your headphones on and be off the phone, and coaches, make sure your workers pay attention. Like let me ask you something If you worked really, really hard at something like your whole goal of the week was this one thing and you fell short, you gave it your all. You're exhausted and now you're're gonna go ask me to stand and work a match. Like what do you think my mental state's going to be? And you're upset because I missed one call out of like 300 in a match. Right, like give me an effing break.
Dr. Jen Fry:Like it's just unbelievable the comment what you're saying. They just played a three setter. They're devastated. They're standing on the line. Miserable as hell that they have to line, usually for the team that beat them. Right, right.
Dan Mickle:I'm sorry, they just kicked your ass. Oh, go watch them play now.
Dr. Jen Fry:And referee the game and you have the parents of the team that beat you sitting near your parents, who, your parents, want to go home because they have a long drive and someone's not giving up their damn seat. And the amount of anonymous posts about that, yeah but you know what?
Dan Mickle:it's funny like that. This all boils down to one thing. For me, my, my master's thesis for sport, my sports psychology degree, was background anger and the whole concept is how much transference do we have of negative and angry energy to players, even if they're not involved in it? And it was amazing Parents fighting in the stands that didn't involve the kids, or a parent yelling at a coach, but the kid wasn't involved. It's still transferred to the kid, the kid still carries that baggage, but these parents just don't get it.
Dr. Jen Fry:The parents don't realize how much what they do every day, all day, affects their kid 1,000%, and I think you know to hear them complaining about the team not getting up to once the game, like they expect that once the ball hits at 25, the other teams are getting up and sprinting away, move right. And so now this anger is building up in the kids because they're complaining about. They're complaining that you didn't play enough, they're complaining about the bad everything. In reality, if we take a step back, everything that should center the kid is not centering the kid, it's centering the parent, and the parent now becomes the main character the parent's the main character about why they're mad that someone else was sitting down and they didn't get to stand right at the 10-foot line with their camera recording at the worst angle humanly possible. They are upset because now there are certain things that they, as the center of attention, didn't get and everything is surrounding them with that is surrounding them with that.
Dan Mickle:Yeah, there's no consideration anymore at all for the athlete. Everything is done to appease the business side of sports. Yes, the schedules, the events themselves when they're scheduled on the calendar, the timing and how the events are run, the day of the events and during the event, the pricing just everything is based on the business model and absolutely nothing is based on the kids. There's no downtime for those kids at those events. Even their downtime is working. If you're not working and you actually have a game off, you're standing in line to get really bad food because you couldn't bring in healthy food, because your bag was checked like you're going into prison and so you have?
Dr. Jen Fry:you have um goldfish, take him out right.
Dan Mickle:you, before you even serve the very first point, you are at a psychological disadvantage as a player Like the. There's just no, no way around it, because nothing, nothing is set up for the players. They'll say it is but it, but it truly isn't. If it was, there'd be longer breaks, there'd be less teams admitted. So it wasn't like herding cattle, right, because you play eight o'clock.
Dr. Jen Fry:Oh God, the doors open at 5.
Dan Mickle:And you're still standing in line to get in. So I'm stressed out before I even get there. Then I'm stressed out because I can't find a place to camp and put all my stuff, then I can't find a seat. You know like stressed out because I can't find a place to camp and put all my stuff, then I can't find a seat.
Dr. Jen Fry:you know like it's just unbelievable, the stressor that we put on and then we expect them to perform at the best by not really supporting them.
Dan Mickle:You know and it goes. One of the one of the blogs and things I talked about a while ago was about, like, team bonding. So we just did all of that and now you're forcing me to go to Applebee's with the team to eat food. I don't like sit and talk to people that I spent all day with it and I probably am not happy with or I'm tired and I just don't want to be around them because it's you know, eating endless bowls of pasta and salad Alavgar magically makes a team a better team.
Dan Mickle:I'm sorry, but if we're practicing two to three days a week, two hours a day, we're playing almost every weekend. What more do I need to do to bond with them?
Dan Mickle:I'm already with them more than anyone else on the planet. Just because the parents aren't bonding doesn't mean the team isn't bonding, but we're trying to force that. I don't give a. I think I talked to like two of my kids' teammates' parents all season long. It's nothing against them, but I don't need their relationship. I'm cordial, I like them, they're nice people, but I don't need that relationship. My daughter needs a relationship with your daughter and the teammate, but you and I don't need to have that relationship. I show up, make sure she's there, I pick her up. You know I don't need to hang out. I don't need to go to the bar with you.
Dr. Jen Fry:Yeah, I mean, there was even one that was like talking about a parent's drinking, should we say something? And it's like what are we doing? They're not bringing some of these parents, you bring alcohol the whole day but like they're at a bar and they're just having a drink and now the parents feel the need to police the parents. Like none of it makes sense, and so I 100 agree with you on that. Okay, so we have these five things that are for the title of um. Let me see here for five. Truth every sports parent should hear, even if they don't want to. One your child's identity can't be your second chance. Two pressure is louder at home than at the court. Three confidence doesn't come from compliments. It comes from coping and getting better.
Dan Mickle:Four let them struggle and five ride home can be either damaging or healing. Yep, where can people find you? You can find me. My website is danmichaelcom. Or all social media handles are at real Dan Mickle. So Tik TOK, instagram, all that stuff at real Dan Mickle. And my podcast is mentalcastcom.
Dr. Jen Fry:Also sign up for his newsletter. It's gotten to be better. We have been working on it. It has gotten to be really good.
Dan Mickle:We have, and I fully admit that probably verbalizing and writing has not been my strongest, so for me that's been my biggest journey, um, but I love it. Like I like the feedback that I get from you and from other people. Like I do enjoy it. I didn't used to, you know. I mean like I would hate to hit send and then wait for the email, and not just from you but just from people like I. Just like you like to be criticized, right, but but then I realized like that's what pushes you and makes you better, like you know what I mean I've. But you have the amazing skill of bringing real feedback with a tone that makes it worth reading. Like like I really think I would like to write a book that doesn't have anything that you, that you were actually responding to, but just your responses, no context given whatsoever.
Dan Mickle:It's just responses to me, I think, would be an amazing read Like, like what is this person not blocked?
Dr. Jen Fry:How is she still allowed to respond in your email?
Dan Mickle:The best is when it happens online, when we go back and forth. The people don't like the little emojis, like the big eye emojis and stuff that we get on the comments Like well, these two are going to go at it, and then they realize, oh, no wait.
Dr. Jen Fry:That is so true. Okay, Dan. Well, I appreciate you being on here to talk about this, and we're going to have you on another episode coming up.
Dan Mickle:So be ready. Awesome, I love it and thank you and I love what you're doing, so hopefully we can move the needle a little bit more on the non, on the court stuff.
Dr. Jen Fry:Appreciate you, friend.
Dan Mickle:Appreciate you.
Dr. Jen Fry:Well, friends, that's it for this episode of Five with Fry your dose of five insights, ideas and inspiration. If you love what you heard, don't forget to head over to where podcasts are played subscribe, share and leave a review. Got a topic you want us to tackle? Drop us a message. We'd love to hear from you. You can come follow me on IG, twitter, the TikTok at Jen Fry Talks, or join me on LinkedIn. Look for me at Dr Jen Fry. Until next time, stay curious, stay bold and keep the conversation going. See you on the next Five with Fry.