Five with Fry

34: NIL TIME: So Your Agent Wants You to Sign NOW? Think Again!

• Dr. Jen Fry • Season 1 • Episode 34

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The world of athlete representation is complicated, and the stakes are higher than ever. Whether you’re a high school athlete thinking about your future, a college player navigating NIL deals, or a pro looking at new opportunities, you need to know how to protect yourself before you ever sign with an agent.

That’s why I brought in Luke Fedlam, a non-agent sports attorney who calls himself a “protector of possibilities.” Luke is the partner and co-chair of the Entertainment, Sports, and Media Practice at Amundsen Davis and managing partner of Advance NIL. Translation: he’s seen it all when it comes to athlete empowerment, contracts, and the pitfalls that can wreck careers if you’re not careful.

In this episode, Luke breaks down the five essential things every athlete should know before signing with an agent. We dig into:

  • How to identify the services you actually need instead of letting an agent tell you what you want
  • The right way to do due diligence—everything from a basic Google search to deep background checks
  • Why written contracts and favorable termination clauses aren’t optional
  • The red flags of rushing into agreements
  • And how to keep monitoring the relationship so you’re always in the driver’s seat

We also talk about the difference between professional player agents (who have oversight) and NIL agents (who often don’t), how to avoid paying multiple agents for the same deal, and why protecting your intellectual property is non-negotiable.

At the end of the day, you are the CEO of your brand. Luke’s insights will give you the tools to step into that role with clarity and confidence.

You can follow him on all platforms at @LukeFedlam for more on how to protect your possibilities.

Dr. Jen Fry:

Friends, welcome to Five with Fry, where five is the magic number, whether it's five minutes, five questions or anything that fits in five. I dive into the big topics that matter, sometimes alone and other times with a friend. From navigating sports conflict to family dynamics, travel, tech, hard-hitting issues and even politics. Nothing and I mean nothing's off the table. This is where curiosity meets conversation, and we always sit at an intersection. I'm your host, dr Jen.

Luke Fedlam:

Fry of Jen Fry Talks.

Dr. Jen Fry:

Let's get into it. You ready, luke? Born ready, born ready. Okay, friends, welcome to the newest episode of Five with Fry. I am Jen Fry, your hostess with the mostest. Today we have on one of my favorite homies and I get to say that about a lawyer which many people don't you know. You know, luke, you know Luke Bedlam, and this guy is a phenomenal homie who knows all about sports law, which is why I thought, in this day and age of NIL health settlement revenue share, everyone's getting lawyers, everyone's getting agents, everyone's having contracts, and so I thought at this moment, it was really important to have him on. So, luke, tell us all about yourself, all about it.

Luke Fedlam:

I don't know about all about that might take up way too much time, but I will say so. I'm a protector of possibilities. I start off there. I focus deeply on protecting the possibilities of the clients that I'm so fortunate to work with and just all of the organizations and people I get to interact with on a daily basis. I share that. I'm a protector of possibilities because oftentimes we are not just our position and that's a whole other five with, because oftentimes we are not just our position and that's a whole other five with Fry that we can talk about later.

Luke Fedlam:

Right, I do work as a lawyer. I'm a non-agent sports attorney. So I'm not an agent, I'm not going out and finding deals for athletes, but I'm focused on protecting them to anything that they sign their name to outside of an autograph. I'm all over that. But I'm also a protector them to anything that they sign their name to outside of an autograph. I'm all over that.

Luke Fedlam:

But I'm also a protector of possibilities when it comes to the work I do in the community and the work that I care deeply about from an education perspective. So I guess, in terms of titles, I'm a partner and the co-chair of the Entertainment, sports and Media Practice at a law firm called Amundsen Davis which is headquartered in Chicago, and I'm also managing partner of Advance NIL, which focuses really just on the education of athletes at all levels now, from the high school level all the way through the pros and beyond. So and I even say beyond the pros now, because we are doing education with some retired professional athletes and groups of retired professional athletes as well. So to me, you protect all the possibilities that someone has by educating them and setting them up for success, and that's why I love Five with Fry, because that's what you care about educating people on stuff that they maybe didn't know as much about. So let's get it, let's go.

Dr. Jen Fry:

Let's go. So I think the first thing, before we even start with the five things we're going to chat about, can you just explain the difference between an agent and a non-agent or a non-sport agent lawyer? Is that how you said it?

Luke Fedlam:

A non-agent sports attorney. Yep, so you've got agents, you've got non-agents, and the reason I differentiate is because oftentimes people will hear the phrase sports lawyer and automatically assume agent. Oftentimes people will hear the phrase sports lawyer and automatically assume agent. And I want to try to edge is my personal crusade to try to like educate people on the fact that having an agent who is not excuse me, having a lawyer who's not an agent, is helpful for you when you navigate kind of life as an athlete these days. So as a non-agent sports attorney, my focus is on I'm a corporate attorney by training mergers and acquisitions, corporate strategic transactions, which all that means is that I've read thousands and thousands of contracts in my years as a lawyer.

Luke Fedlam:

I understand contracts kind of inside and out from a drafting and review and analysis perspective, and so if an athlete has an agent that's out finding them deals, finding them opportunities, that's great, that's a helpful service to have. But then you also need someone who can review those agreements and help make sure that you are getting unbiased, qualified, independent and objective advice on whether you should sign that, not sign that, what should be negotiated within that contract. Because if we're going to be kind of honest about it. Oftentimes. What agents care most about are really two things when it comes to finding opportunities for an athlete. What is the athlete going to get paid? Number one, like how much? And number two what does the athlete have to do in order to get that compensation? And don't get me wrong, those are probably the two most important things that the athlete is looking for, but at the same time those two things are usually covered on the first page of a contract.

Luke Fedlam:

There are multiple other pages that come and someone needs to understand. What does this indemnification provision mean, or what impact does that have to me? Or what impact does this exclusivity have or not have, like all these other things that come with those contracts are critical. So, as a non-agent sports attorney, my focus is on really being the lawyer, the lawyer for athletes, helping to make sure that they stay protected as they navigate this business.

Dr. Jen Fry:

No, and that makes sense. And this is, like you know. One of the things you talked about is that this could be for anyone. It can be for athletes, coaches, administrators, anyone of that. So in reality, you have an agent, but you will still need a lawyer to look over your contracts with the agent. Fines.

Luke Fedlam:

Right, that's right. And there are some agencies, some of the biggest agencies. So if we want to talk about the big agencies the Clutch, excel, caa, priority Athletes First and beyond right, all these big agencies oftentimes have their own lawyers in-house, and a question I get a lot of times from athletes or their families are well, if they have lawyers, do we still need our own lawyer? And my answer is sound self-serving, but it is always yes.

Dr. Jen Fry:

And the reason why but shouldn't it be self-serving for them at least to know that?

Luke Fedlam:

Well, sure, absolutely. And I reason why but shouldn't it be self-serving for them at least to know that? Well, sure, absolutely. But here's the thing. The reason it's yes is because it comes down to legal ethical obligation, right? So if you are a lawyer for an agency, your client is the agency. Even though you may help an athlete out and look over something or set something up for them, your ultimate ethical obligation, your legal requirement, is to put your client's interest first, and in that instance, the client is the agency.

Luke Fedlam:

For someone like myself, that's not an agent, that's just works that works at a law firm, right, our clients. If the client is the individual athlete, my whole legal requirement is to put the athlete's interests first, and, and so I'm going to care about. I don't care what agent they go with, what agency or anything like that. What I care about is making sure that they are protected and know how to then navigate this space, so that if they want to terminate, they can terminate. If they want to move forward, they can move forward. So these are the things. This is why it's so important for someone to have their own lawyer as part of the team, because at the same time, you end up signing an agreement with your agent Someone needs to review that agreement.

Dr. Jen Fry:

No, that makes a lot of sense, and so I think it's that nuance that's so important, that people don't realize and they get caught in these agreements.

Luke Fedlam:

I know you probably see some ghastly contracts where you're like bro, you signed this yes, I mean, that's probably the number, I would say probably number one, number two thing that athletes come to me for is hey, I'm in this contract and I'm trying to get out of it right. And then that's when I say, well, send me the contract, I'll take a look at it. And then I take a look at it and I'm like inside, I'm like, oh my gosh. And then I'll tell them directly like, before you sign another contract, let's make sure that, um, that I reviewed, or that someone that knows what they're looking for reviews it.

Luke Fedlam:

And because these have serious financial consequences, I've got an athlete right now that is a college student athlete that transfers schools, that has that wanted to get rid of their agent. Um, and they, uh, the agent wants a piece of the new deal that the athlete is signing, uh, with the new school. And I said, well, send me the contract that they had you sign. And it's this kind of kind of flimsy page and a half and it's like this this, this contract I use that term loosely doesn't cover all of these other things that we needed to cover right now, in this moment, to make it easier to fight for you to not have to pay tens of literally tens of thousands of dollars to this agent that you terminated and wanted to move away from. So like having someone that understands these contracts and understands how this industry kind of operates can help protect you.

Luke Fedlam:

So you don't. So it doesn't. You don't have the consequences and repercussions of coming out of pocket. You know with money that you don't want to come out of pocket with. I tell people all the time forget the tens of thousands. I don't want to lose $10.

Luke Fedlam:

So let's let's try to make sure that we're setting ourselves up for success from the front end and not trying to clean it up on the back end.

Dr. Jen Fry:

Now, you never want to be the person that they talk about as the reason why right, like this person, the contract they had you don't want to be like John Smith, right right, you don't want to be that. Okay, so then that's, I think, a great jump off to talking about this. We're going to talk about what are five things anyone should know before signing with an agent. That's going to be our key thing Five things anyone should know before signing with the agent. So let's start with number one, luke, what's the first one?

Luke Fedlam:

Five things before signing. That anyone should know before signing with an agent is you have to understand what services do I actually want? What services do I actually want and or need? And the reason I say we start there is because oftentimes people will say, well, as a lawyer, you know, wouldn't the first thing be like something in the contract and we haven't even gotten to the contract yet? Because I'll tell people all the time, especially because of name, image and likeness.

Luke Fedlam:

Now I'm going to get on this little bit of a soapbox for a second, because when it comes to and let's break this down in terms of kind of the levels of agents, right, there are player representation agents who are representing athletes at the professional level, and so when athletes are transitioning to the pro level, they'll have this, they'll have an agent, oftentimes not all the times, but oftentimes have an agent. And then you have kind of NIL agents or marketing agents, right, the reason why this is so important to understand the services that you need. When you talk about the player agents at the professional level, they are governed. They are governed by, usually a collective bargaining agreement between the players and the league of whatever, like the players union in the league of whatever sport that is, wnba, nba, nfl, et cetera, major league baseball and so there is oversight and governance of how agents should operate At the college level with name, image and likeness and generally at the marketing level for marketing agents. There is no governing oversight for those agents. So if you are a college student listening to this high school student, listening to this family member of one thinking about I want to hire an agent to help me find NIL deals, nil opportunities, et cetera, you have to understand that there is no one really providing oversight to those kind of marketing NIL agents.

Luke Fedlam:

So when I say the first step is to think about the services you want, you want to think about what is it that I'm looking for? What do I need? If I'm a student athlete that says I'm going to get paid because of this house settlement, I'm now going to receive a certain amount of money from the institution and I'm not going to go out and really look for other NIL deals or things like that, then you don't need a marketing agent right At this time. Let's think about that. Let's be honest about that right. If what you're saying is I need someone that's going to go out and find opportunities for me that can take my brand, develop my brand even further, build relationships, get me in front of folks so that I can monetize my brand. Because I have a social media following, because I have an athletic ability that's garnering recognition great.

Luke Fedlam:

Then think about those services that you want an agent to provide, so that you are dictating the terms of the person who is going to be working for you as your agent, as opposed to the agent telling you what it is that they're going to do. I mean, think about it for a second agent telling you what it is that they're going to do. I mean, think about it for a second.

Luke Fedlam:

When we have a job, if we get hired to do a job, we don't come into our employer and say, well, this is my job description, I'm doing this, this, this and this, and that's what you're going to get and this is what you're going to pay for. We don't do that right, and so when we think about it, we the athlete who is the CEO now of this business happening around them the athlete has to decide these are the services that I want, so this is what I want you to provide for me. So the first thing that anyone should know before hiring an agent is to take the time and think about. I need to know, what is it, what are the services that I need, that I'm looking for someone else to come in and to provide to me.

Dr. Jen Fry:

Yeah, no, I think that's great because I think about how many of these kind of quote unquote NIL companies that are out there just to find deals for people. Right, we're going to make it as easy as possible. You come on here, you like Coca-Cola, Coca-Cola has something. You click on it done, and like people are just trying to make it so easy, but I think this contractual aspect is lost. And then the second thing is is people don't really know what do I need from this person to help me with these next levels, and then they get caught just hiring someone who's told them and they might not need 90% of that.

Luke Fedlam:

No, that's exactly right. And you end up getting sold because, let's be honest, right, there's an allure to an agent saying they want to work with me. Right, especially when it's the first time it's like, oh my gosh, I must be a. They're the expert.

Luke Fedlam:

They're older than me, they know more than my parents know about this space, so I'm just going to automatically take them at what they say when we really should be slowing the process down and saying what services are we actually looking for, and then we dictate the terms of those services to the agent, not the other way around.

Dr. Jen Fry:

Well, I think it also goes to the aspect of you have time. Also goes to the aspect of you have time, like so so many times I think with this, people don't realize you have time. The the worst thing that can happen if someone slides the contract is like you need to sign it now. That's the big red flag if they need it signed when you know you can't. If you leave any of that language like you have more time. I think the problem is is that some of these athletes don't realize you have time. You have time on this contract. You have time. Everything doesn't need to be done right now. Even if your friends are like, no, you need to sign it, this happens. No, you have time, you have time Time.

Luke Fedlam:

You have all the time in the world. It is a huge red flag for anyone that's trying to rush your time. Huge red flag. And that goes, you know, for agent selection, that goes for people wanting to get you in deals or invest in this or put money in that and all that, like anyone rushing you, that is a red flag.

Dr. Jen Fry:

Yep, okay, this is a good start. What's number two? What's number two you got?

Luke Fedlam:

So number two we still haven't even gotten to the contract yet, right? But number two, it's got to be the due diligence, right?

Luke Fedlam:

So a lot of times you know, people may not know what due diligence is. You've got to conduct due diligence, which is research, analysis and understanding of who the person is that is trying to become your agent. This is so critical now because, like I said earlier, we have at the professional level for player agents. There is usually a database by the Players Association right. The unions are responsible for governing and providing oversight to those agents when it comes to NIL marketing deals, that does not exist.

Luke Fedlam:

And so when someone comes to you and says, hey, I've gotten some deals for other players, hey, I wanna represent you and your family, I've known your family for a while and this, and that it doesn't matter, right, what's the due diligence? So how do we do that due diligence? So there's a few things right to do. One one of the easiest things is Google the person, simply Google the person. We're not talking about rocket science yet. I'll give you some other aspects that are much we're not talking about rocket science yet. I'll give you some other aspects that are much you know kind of more in-depth. But the first place to start is do some Google research of who that person is.

Luke Fedlam:

I've had situations, and we've read about situations, where there have been folks that have, you know, spent time in prison or that have been sued by clients or other things that just will come up from a simple Google search. And so taking the time to just do that is a great place to start, because, also, is that person? Have they been quoted in the media? Have they been on podcasts and interviews and news and things like that? Because are they who they say they actually are and I tell people all the time listen, I'm in Columbus, ohio, and a lot of times people think that sports lawyers should come from New York or LA. I'm in Columbus, our firm is headquartered in Chicago, but if you want to know about me, if you Google me, you will find all the stuff that you want to find out about me. Shoot my family, other stuff, right. So there's that level of initial due diligence.

Luke Fedlam:

But then let's talk even deeper and there are various platforms. Lawyers can do a lawsuit, research and due diligence on a potential agent and find out if they've been a member or a party of lawsuits. And keep in mind this is not to say that just because someone has certain things in their background means that they're either good or bad. What it means is it's information for you to know, to be able to ask questions about, and to understand and make an informed and educated decision. Right, but at least you know what you're getting into. You could also go. There's the ANSBC. Right Now I can put the. I'll give you the link here that you can include in the show notes.

Luke Fedlam:

Ansbc is basically an opportunity really for athletes to go through a clearinghouse for any agents or third parties that want to work with them. It's called the Athlete National Sports Business Clearinghouse, and really what that just focuses on is if an advisor wants to work with a player, an agent, let's just say, wants to work with a player, you can ask that agent are they certified? Are they certified through ANSBC? And what ANSBC does is it does background checks. It does what licenses do they have. It does lawsuits and background. Have they gone through bankruptcies? All the different things, right, and so these are things that can be helpful. Are they on the sex offender registry, like all of those things that wouldn't necessarily just pop up in a Google search? It goes in depth and then the best part about it is that program and that platform uses AI to then do ongoing monitoring of that individual, so in case something happens later on now you know more about it.

Luke Fedlam:

And so that's something where, again, it's that third party that pays for their screening. So if somebody says so, the athlete doesn't cost anything to the athlete, to the family, you can just say are you certified? And if somebody says no, and you give them the information and they're like, oh yeah, I don't want to do that, Well then the question is, why?

Dr. Jen Fry:

right, and is that a red?

Luke Fedlam:

flag in and of itself right. So again, that's another thing to think about. But the due diligence and understanding kind of doing the research and understanding kind of who is you know who's involved, like who are they? What's their background, You've what, what's their background? You've got to know that information before you sign on with them because, especially as an agent, this is someone that is that is representing you so who do you want?

Luke Fedlam:

speaking your name out there in the industry. And the other thing that I'll say, too, is I've had numerous situations where college athletes have agents and that agent then is shopping the kid around that player around without necessarily the athlete knowing that, and so that's something that has caused some issues when it comes to recruiting, because, you know, coaches talk. Let's just be real. Coaches talk to each other, so they know, hey, we didn't get this kid or this kid whatever, what is what we're offering them? And so these can be challenging times If you have somebody out there that you don't trust, out there representing your name and representing your interests.

Dr. Jen Fry:

No, 100 percent. And the thing that they have to remember is you, when you sign on with them, they are, they are in the room for you and that you, they have no clue what good, bad or ugly they're doing If you haven't done that, due diligence. So I 100 percent agree with that. And again, it's that rushing things. Some people will try and latch on and rush to get you to sign and if you haven't done this, baby, you could be putting yourself up for a really hard time, really hard time. Okay, what's number three? What's number three? We got you know, asking what you need to know, what you want or need. Second one due diligence. What's the third one?

Luke Fedlam:

Third, the third one. Third one let's get into the contracts. Now. You've got to have a contract in place. I do not care if the person is like, oh, I'm just going to do some stuff for you, we don't have to put anything in writing right now. No, you have to have a contract, number one and then let's just say this will be the sub point to this one. You've got to have a contract that you understand. You have to understand the contract, and whether you understand it because you've read through and your family's read through and everybody's kind of explained it, or you hire a lawyer to help navigate that space you have to have a contract.

Luke Fedlam:

Now. Point four, a little foreshadowing. Point four is going to talk about one particular provision that's critically important in the contract. But generally I'll say in that contract, you've got to know this is where you put out, what services are they providing. I'll say in that contract, when things go wrong, as they sometimes will, there will be a challenge, and having a bad contract is very hard to fight over because now it's just up to interpretation and that makes it very challenging.

Dr. Jen Fry:

A hundred percent. And when you try and lead it to interpretation, how are they interpreting? Who's interpreting? What's their knowledge? Like? It can be absolutely bad.

Dr. Jen Fry:

Okay, so we talk about you have to have a contract in place. It reminds me of when I started my tech startup. I didn't know anything about ip and your girl didn't understand about ncaa ndas. I didn't know anything about that, and probably about a month in with the first app, app, app developers somebody had mentioned that and I was like, okay, let me shoot them this contract, baby. It took them about a month and a half to sign it, to the point where I was like, oh, y'all are trying to get me, like I have sent you this contract every single way snail mail, bat service, like, like everything. And they'd be like, oh, we, we don't receive it. What should we look at? And everything they're trying.

Dr. Jen Fry:

I was like it got to the point where I was like we can't continue unless you sign this contract, because now it's making me uncomfortable that if you've done this before, there's a reason why you keep holding off on signing it, and especially when it deals with your intellectual property, especially when it deals with your name, like you, that I realized at that point, how screwed I could have been. Because here's what happens, and I know you've seen it People don't sign the contract. Someone makes a lot of money off of something. Yes, who comes out of the ground? That person? And now it's like this is mine, I did this work, whatever, whatever. And now you've got to fight and give up and come up with some money, for them could diswork, whatever, whatever.

Luke Fedlam:

And now you've got to fight and give up and come up with some money for them. That's right, and this happens all the time.

Luke Fedlam:

I mean just on you know just yesterday well, technically today's Monday, so Friday there were two different calls of people who both had unsigned contracts and were trying to enforce the contracts. Right, I mean, this is this. I know, and this is something I mean completely different industries, different things going on, different situations but you have to have a contract, number one with an agent, and then you have to make sure you understand it before you sign it. I mean, you brought up the phrase intellectual property. For those that are listening, intellectual property is the things that you create, that you have ownership over, right, and so we think copyrights, trademarks, patents, right, these are all examples of intellectual property. But from an NIL perspective, an athlete, your name, your image and your likeness are your intellectual property, and so making sure that you understand how can this agent use your name, image and likeness as they are marketing their own company and that's something that happens quite a bit right, where agents may maybe they don't provide that much service for you, but they sure are using your name and your image all over their website to promote that you're a client of theirs and so understanding these contracts are critical.

Luke Fedlam:

I'm getting fired up If you can't see me. I'm on the edge of my seat because this stuff gets like. I love negotiating this because this is, if we think about it, oftentimes in the industry, just generally speaking, everybody has lawyers, oftentimes, except for the athletes themselves the NCAA, professional sports leagues, conferences, universities, individual teams everybody has a team of lawyers, right? But then you have athletes that are the actual talent that makes this whole industry run, and they oftentimes don't have appropriate or adequate legal counsel, and so it is just so important to have your own counsel so that you know to Jen's story of her own situations that you know, is somebody trying to take advantage of me or not? Is this normal or is this not normal? What should I be looking for? What are the ways, the levers that we can pull to negotiate to my benefit? You've got to have somebody that can help you understand that.

Dr. Jen Fry:

Yeah, so random story, there was a guy who developed a men's volleyball recruiting service and we couldn't figure out a friend of mine who works at a powerful institution, we couldn't figure out who the person was behind it.

Dr. Jen Fry:

And we're looking at the website and we're looking at the Instagram and all that and on the website this person would have there was a well-known men's volleyball player and he would have John Smith's jumping program, but he had never talked to John Smith and he was trying to say well, we don't say it's his own program and we say it's a program like the one John Smith used and has a picture of. John Smith, has his name, has everything that anyone with common sense when they go on the website would rightly assume that John Smith okayed the program and he tried to get into these semantic games of well, we can use the images, why can't? And we're like you can't use all these guys' images, you've never worked with them. And you'll see that with people who will try and use, right, the semantics of well, you know, we don't say it's actually his name, we didn't. We're not fully saying we worked with him or got him this deal.

Luke Fedlam:

Right, Right, that is, um, you know, I'm like as a lawyer, I'm like salivating here, Like that is, that is a no brainer, easy one, Like I mean that's that, but that's. Those are the kinds of things that are happening in this space. Sports are unique. There's so much money and attention in the sports industry that so many people are trying to take advantage and monetize to their own benefit opportunities created in this industry and because of that, athletes, families. You've got to have somebody that is representing your interests and knows what they're looking for.

Dr. Jen Fry:

Oh, 100 percent, and I think that's the thing about it is is that when you don't know anything and you just you want to trust. But I think the thing about it is that, like I'm trying to find the website of this guy, but like when you went on it, like how he used this guy's name and he had never, never talked to him, and like trying to go in the rabbit hole of trying to figure out who it is. Because that's what you'll see right Is people will try and use you and they'll do fake, company fake company fake email and then your name is out there as someone and they're being paid off of your name.

Dr. Jen Fry:

That's right. Okay, number four. Number four so we have to have a contract in place that you understand services compensation, compensation model. So what's number four?

Luke Fedlam:

Yeah, number four is you have to understand within the contract and I shared some of the different things to look for have to understand within the contract and I shared some of the different things to look for. But then one of the number one things that you've got to make sure that you negotiate to your benefit is the termination language in a contract. In the agency world, oftentimes agents will say things like I need to have a year or two of working with you to under best understand you, to promote your brand, to promote who you are, so they will include language that will say the term of this agreement is two years, with an automatic annual renewal thereafter, or this contract can't be terminated until the end of the initial term, the initial term being two years, et cetera, et cetera. Wrong. Right, you, as the individual, should be able to terminate someone who you have hired to work for you. Right, you should be able to terminate them when you want to terminate them, and so you can very easily negotiate things like either party can terminate this agreement for any reason at any time, upon 15 days or 30 days notice. Right, you should not have to wait for the end of a year or for the end of, especially because, especially if you fall out and have disagreement, do you really want to then have someone who's still representing you and you all don't agree? You don't think they're doing a good job. Are they going to really continue to push your interests in the industry? Absolutely not.

Luke Fedlam:

So, thinking about the termination piece is everything. And if somebody is not comfortable with that right, if somebody's not comfortable with the fact that they have to earn the right to work with you every single day, then that's an issue. That really is an issue, and it could be. I'm not saying why they might. I mean, right, different things, things. But I would just say this when I work with clients as a lawyer, right, they can terminate me any. I could write an agreement for you today and you could terminate me tomorrow. Right, I mean there and that isn't. There's not even notice or anything, right?

Luke Fedlam:

So, thinking about the people that are providing you services they're providing you the services. You should be able to terminate them. Now. Here's the thing that does come up in termination language that's. That's a bit nuanced in the agency space. What you will oftentimes hear, or at least should see, is language that says something along the lines of if you are, um, if the agency or the agent is has had significant negotiations with a particular brand or opportunity for you, then during the term while the contract is still active, then they should still get paid, even after termination, if there's a termination event. Now why is that? That's normal because they would say, well, what we don't want is we don't want to do all the work to get you to this deal.

Luke Fedlam:

And then, the day before you sign the final version, you fire us and then we don't get paid, right. So, clearly that is fair, that is normal in the industry. But there has to be some definition around you know, significant negotiation, etc.

Luke Fedlam:

If they simply just identify a company, a brand or what have you, but haven't negotiated anything, haven't started down the path of getting that deal put in place, then you really want the contract to be able to allow you to still terminate, because maybe that's not the right opportunity for you at this point. But you don't want the agent or agency to show back up a year from now when you've signed with that company, that maybe it wasn't right at that point in your career, but now, a year later, it is, and now they're saying, well, we introduced you, we did this, so therefore you owe us you know a percentage of that deal.

Luke Fedlam:

So these are things like just the termination, the termination language, language around, which is oftentimes part of the termination piece around renewals, extensions and modifications of a marketing contract. That matters, right. What's an example of that? An example would be if I have you as an agent. You signed a deal with me with company A and I'm doing this deal with company A and it's a one-year deal, but, you know, after about three months into the deal, I fire you as my agent. Yes, I still owe you the rest of whatever compensation is due to you. What the agents oftentimes will say is well, any renewal, modification or extension of that contract with company.

Dr. Jen Fry:

A.

Luke Fedlam:

I should still get paid off of. But what will happen is you'll have a new agent that comes in and says oh, they only got you whatever the number is $50,000 for that one year deal with company A. I could get you $120,000. And so they modify the deal, get you more money, and so they want their percentage 20% or whatever. The old agent wants their percentage because they get renewals, extensions, modifications. That's the type of stuff that needs to be cleared up and that's why having someone who understands the contract negotiated that's why that matters so you can protect yourself and not end up in a situation where you've got two agents now coming at you trying to get paid off of a deal that you've signed.

Dr. Jen Fry:

And you now paying 40% to them and you paying 30% to Uncle Sam, and then you coming out with money because you didn't pay attention to that, that's exactly right.

Luke Fedlam:

That's exactly right. So that termination language it matters in a contract.

Dr. Jen Fry:

Yeah, okay, fifth one wrap it up. What's that? Fifth important part, the fifth wrap up of this.

Luke Fedlam:

Right. If you think about this, you've got right. We've talked about what services you need and what you're looking for. We've talked about how important due diligence is. We've talked about you've got to have a contract in place and then, when you have that contract in place, you've got to understand the termination language. So the last piece is okay, I've hired this agent. Now I've signed a contract. You can't just let it go. You have got to have continued ongoing monitoring of that relationship. Right Ongoing monitors is number five, and this is why, oftentimes, athletes will go through the process. They'll select their agent.

Luke Fedlam:

And then once they've selected their agent. Now, at that point they just kind of forget any other. I don't. I've already made my selection. I don't need to do any ongoing monitoring. Well, guess what?

Luke Fedlam:

When athletes oftentimes get taken advantage of. It's not because someone takes advantage of them on day one. It's usually because that person has built up trust over time and then they do something where they take advantage of that athlete. The ongoing monitoring matters. You have to be able to decide whether it's an agent, financial advisor, attorney, accountant, whomever, social media manager, whoever is part of your team. You've got to continue to analyze are they the right person for the team? And I share this with athletes all the time. If you're an athlete at the college level, at the pro level, you are getting evaluated every single day by the coaching staff and front office or administrators. Every single day you're getting evaluated, so why wouldn't you do that same now? You're not going to evaluate necessarily your advisors every single day, but there's got to be some level of are these the right people for me? And questioning that on an ongoing basis and making sure that they're proving that they are One of the easiest ways to do this, and I used to have this conversation with pros all the time and now I'm having it with college student athletes as well. When you have your team of advisors, you've got to have an annual meeting at least where you bring them all together and have you know, ask questions of them, have them ask questions of each other, so that everybody can. There's a level of checks and balances. Your agent cannot simply be the end all be all of of everything that you have and all the decisions that you're making, that is, setting yourself up to be taken advantage of. Your agent is someone who is working for you. You have to be able to hold them accountable, and so to hold them accountable, you have to be able to have ongoing monitoring over time.

Luke Fedlam:

Let's just use an example If you're a college student athlete, you haven't you've decided that you need an agent. You get an agent. You have to decide what are the services that I hired them for. What is it that we talked about? In terms of goal setting, in terms of what I'm looking for, I'm looking for increasing my following on social media. I'm looking for appearances, where I can make appearances and have the film and content that gets created from that. I'm looking for these types of deals a trading card deal, whatever it might be.

Luke Fedlam:

So you have to be able to set your goals and set your expectations of what you want of that agent, but then you also have to then hold them accountable by having an annual meeting, quarterly meeting, biannual meeting, where you actually go through and say, hey, these are the things we've talked about, are you delivering? Are they benefiting you? And if they're not, have conversations about how they can adjust or things that need to be adjusted or, you know, ultimately possibly move on to somebody else. But understanding what it is that you're looking for and holding them accountable to that is critical. That's that ongoing monitoring piece. Make sure you know if they're doing what they say they're going to do. Hold them accountable to it.

Dr. Jen Fry:

You know, I think that kind of brings up the space I'm in when talking about conflict, because, let's be honest, how many of these athletes, parents, coaches, administrators who have agents are scared shitless to do that because that's conflict, right? So I know, luke, that there are probably many of them that their agent is trashed, their lawyer is trashed, but they don't want to say anything. So they're like I'll just ride it out and, baby, you got nine more months and the amount of money you're going to lose because you're afraid to have that conversation.

Luke Fedlam:

Yeah, you know, a lot of times coaches will say things like hey, it's a business decision. Right. Like, hey, yeah, you know, whatever You're not starting business is business. Whatever You've got to be able to have those same business decisions, it's a business decision. Listen, it's not you know what and you can put it on, listen, you can. You can all the time. You can just say listen, I'm analyzing my business. You know we don't need to get into all the particulars, but for right now this isn't the right opportunity Period, point blank.

Luke Fedlam:

But you're right, jen, I think a lot of times people have a you know, have an issue with conflict, but you have to view this as not necessarily conflict as much as it is. I'm making a decision that can have significant financial implications for myself, my family, my community, and I owe it to those groups, and myself included, to make the decisions that will best set me up for success.

Dr. Jen Fry:

Bottom line. It also can have significant repercussions on your reputation, how people view you, your business deals. The amount of people who are so afraid to advocate for themselves and will risk so much of their future because they don't want to have a 10-second conversation is wild to me.

Luke Fedlam:

It's exactly right and having that conversation, it can mean a lot. It can mean a lot financially, reputationally. A good example of that from a reputation perspective if you have an agent that's out there pitching you to other teams and you didn't authorize that and you're not aware of that, that is a problem. Even if that agent is out pitching to your existing university and you didn't authorize that and you're not aware of that, that is a problem. Even if that agent is out pitching to your existing university and you don't know about it, that's a problem, right? Because what you don't want is the coaching staff to be like I can't believe this kid is asking for more money.

Luke Fedlam:

We just had a great practice, we just had a great experience and now, all of a sudden, they're asking for more money when you as the player, you didn't even authorize it, you didn't know that that was happening, but the agent's trying to increase the amount that they're making, and so these are things why, reputationally, it does matter. So, being able to have those meetings, have those conversations, hear my expectations I talk to athletes a lot of times. When you're thinking about agents and others, think about values. What are your values? Loyalty, integrity, honesty, these things right. Well, those are your values and you tell that to the agent. These are my values, and they do things that are counter to that. Let that happen one time onto the next right, because you've made it clear that these are your values, but you've got to set again.

Luke Fedlam:

It goes back to something we talked about earlier. Oftentimes, athletes will get so excited about the opportunity that they forget the business side of it. I'm excited, this agent wants to work with me. Okay, that's great. But with those opportunities come responsibilities. So let's make sure that we're talking through those responsibilities handling how we're going to have tough conversations, handling what my expectations are and how I'm going to hold you accountable to those expectations.

Dr. Jen Fry:

And the thing about it is that this is adult stuff. This you know, like I think, about my financial advisor. He is wonderful. We meet four times a year. He would make sure that those meetings are on my schedule to talk through everything anywhere he's moving my money. He talks about everything and I think a lot of the athletes forget, like this is a part of adulthood is people who are managing your things. You have to be able to have conversations with them, because I think we can talk about many athletes, many coaches, may, anyone who has agents who didn't know where their money was going and went bankrupt, who problems with the irs, bad deals, all these things because they didn't realize, like this is a part of adulthood, is having these conversations that's absolutely it, and and I think the challenge is that name, image and likeness is introducing these levels of adulthood to athletes who are younger and younger that haven't had to deal with that.

Luke Fedlam:

Right, because sometimes there's this, this mindset of going to colleges, my transitionary period into really becoming an adult. But now, if we're talking about the money that comes in at the high school level and now the college level, for sure, baby, you are an adult day one and whether you feel it internally or not, and so we also have to teach this, we have to teach and share this. I wrote an op-ed I don't know, a month or two ago I'll send it to you that really talked about the challenge now that we face around education, because with this house settlement, we have schools that are on the opposite side of contracts with their student-athletes and oftentimes we have relied on the school. If you're a student-athlete coming in during orientation, during your first on-campus, you're going to get all this paperwork to sign and you just sign off on it because it's the school's providing it, but now that's different, and this education of becoming an adult is critical.

Luke Fedlam:

So that's why conversations like this and others are so important for athletes and their families, because for some people, there's probably quite a few things they heard today that they didn't even know, and so we need to help make sure that that education exists, because, yes, part of it's becoming an adult, and for some people it's reminding them and for others, it's just teaching them. This is adulthood.

Dr. Jen Fry:

You know, one of my biggest worries is I think about how much, whenever you come to college, that first year, is you figuring life out, cause I mean, you've moved from wherever. Now you have a new place, you're living a new school, new team, new food, new everything is new Everything.

Dr. Jen Fry:

And you had transitional period. But, baby, now you make in 2 million, 3 million. The transition is gone, you are expected now to deliver and deliver immediately, and I'm not sure your thoughts on this, but I think many families and athletes aren't prepared for the delivering immediately that comes with the money.

Luke Fedlam:

I agree with that. I agree with that because it is, it is, it's new and we're talking about like we're talking about athletes that have athletic ability but who are also still developing their brain, their mind, and they're they're, they're in the process of growing up, and so this it creates a challenge, but that's why I think it's so critical for everyone that's in this kind of sports business ecosystem to be able to ensure that athletes are getting this qualified, independent, objective education that they need over and over and over again, so that they can understand it as they learn to be adults in managing these decisions they have to make.

Dr. Jen Fry:

Yeah, I mean we don't do practice one time and say, okay, you shot one free throw, you're good, but stuff with this it's like oh well, I've already had financial education, what do I need it, sir? You're about to make millions. Man, you're about you don't want one time. You want to make sure it's consistent, so that stuff is drilled into your head versus you take an L on a few hundred thousand. Now you are learning.

Luke Fedlam:

Yes, but. But let's be honest, let's, let's, let's really call a spade a spade. Schools are in the same boat where schools oftentimes will be like, okay, financial literacy, okay, 30 football team, you're getting 30 minutes, check the box. Hey, we, financial literacy Okay, 30 football team, you're getting 30 minutes, check the box. Hey, we checked the box, we did it. You're good, right, and expect that that's okay Because, hey, we can't, we can't cut into practice time, we can't get into, you know, film study, we can't cut into nutrition. So I mean, these are like this is, this is the, the, the ecosystem that families and athletes are coming into, and there has to be an understanding that that's what it is. And so how do I help protect myself and prepare myself, at least when it comes to agents? Here are five things hopefully that people got that can be helpful as they go through their decision-making process.

Dr. Jen Fry:

Absolutely, and our five things are number one what services do I want or need? The second one is due diligence, research, research, research. The third one is the contract in place services length compensation model. The fourth thing is termination agreement and the fifth thing is continued monitoring of the relationship.

Luke Fedlam:

Oh, there it is.

Dr. Jen Fry:

Mic drop. Where can people find you, All the good stuff you write, all the good stuff you do, If they want to talk with you, hire you? Where can they find you? Hunt you down?

Luke Fedlam:

So, going back to what we said before, you can always Google me and you can find. I think one of the top things will be like our firm's website, amundsen Davis, so Amundsen Davis Law. It's a lot. At Luke Fedlum on social media, so at L-U-K-E-F-E-D-L-A-M. On all social media, on LinkedIn, if you message me pretty much anywhere, I will get it and get back to you, but that's probably the best way.

Dr. Jen Fry:

Yeah, luke, I so appreciate you taking the time to educate people. This is all good stuff. I'm going to be sending it to folks everywhere because I think, like you said, this is for anyone who potentially will work with an agent.

Luke Fedlam:

Thank you friend. Hey, thank you, friend, for having me on and thanks for just doing these right and having these conversations. It's critical we need it, yeah.

Dr. Jen Fry:

Well, friends, that's it for this episode of Five with Fry your dose of five insights, ideas and inspiration. If you love what you heard, don't forget to head over to where podcasts are played subscribe, share and leave a review. Got a topic you want us to tackle? Drop us a message. We'd love to hear from you. You can come follow me on IG, twitter, the TikTok at Jen Fry Talks, or join me on LinkedIn. Look for me at Dr Jen Fry. Until next time, stay curious, stay bold and keep the conversation going. See you on the next Five with Fry.