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Five with Fry
Think of this podcast as your go-to for tackling the hard stuff with clarity and confidence. On Five with Fry, Dr. Jen Fry breaks down the rules, challenges the norms, and dives deep into the tough conversations that shape our lives—conflict, culture, family, sports, tech, and everything in between. This is where you learn to rely on yourself, embrace the messy, and come out stronger on the other side.
Five with Fry
38: Five Things You Need to Know When Navigating Leadership’s Hardest Moments
When you’re in the chair—whether as an Athletic Director, head coach, or top leader—everything starts and stops with you. Most books don’t prepare you for that reality. Leading means holding steady when the boat feels like it’s tipping and people are looking for direction.
In this episode of Five with Fry, I talk with Allison Kern, Associate VP and Director of Athletics at Cal State East Bay, about what leadership really demands. We talk about thriving in discomfort, making hard conversations part of everyday culture, and staying committed to your vision even when it feels unpopular. Allison also shares how solitude is part of the role and why trusting yourself matters.
We dig into how communication reflects your view of others, how to identify the compromises you can live with, and why the right fit matters more than taking every opportunity.
If you’re leading now or preparing for that role, this conversation offers an honest look at the weight of leadership and what it takes to create stability, clarity, and trust.
Yes, the real is real.
Allison Kern:Are you ready?
Dr. Jen Fry:friends.
Allison Kern:Let's do it.
Dr. Jen Fry:Okay, friends, welcome to the newest episode of Five with Fry. Your hostess with the mostest, dr Jen Fry, is here, and today we're having a solid ass episode. You know one of the things that when we talk about leadership, there are so many small nuances that people don't talk to you about. They don't give you the real, the realest real, they let you her on because of our conversation we had at NAC in Orlando and some of the tidbits of information were so valuable I knew other people needed to know. So, allison, first off the gate, introduce yourself, because you are the goat, in my opinion of ADs.
Allison Kern:I'm going to start taking you on the road as my hype woman. Also, I'm going to start using it every time I talk about you with the realest real I like that you yes um, yeah, my name is allison kern.
Allison Kern:I'm currently the associate vice president and director of athletics at cal state, east bay president. Yes, third stop as an ad. Um, and I'm career college athletics. So it was pointed out to me that I've been in this long enough to have seen a lot of evolutions in college athletics and in organizations, which I hate because it dates me a little bit. But yeah, I've been doing this a long time. Started in coaching, got into administration and they still let me sit in the seat. So here we are.
Dr. Jen Fry:The VP. I forgot about that. You got that big girl title. You have had such amazing experiences and I think that's why you get to sit in the seat, because I think you just do things differently than other ADs. We have been around this game a long time and we have seen the ebbs and flows of ADs, and so, with this podcast, what we're going to be talking about is the five things you need to know about being in the chair, and when we say the chair, the chair could be a head coaching position. It could be an athletic director VP. The chair is the chair. It's that top leadership position where everything starts and stops with you, and so I really want to make sure that we understand the chair can be wherever. Whatever big girl, big boy, big them position you're in, and so let's get this party started. What would be the first thing that you're like? People need to know this when they're getting into the chair.
Allison Kern:Yeah, I think a lot of people I call it thriving in discomfort. A lot of people say, like you got to get comfortable with being uncomfortable, and I think that's true. But thriving in discomfort to your point about, I think part of why I do things differently is I've just had a lot of really uncomfortable experiences and sometimes, like I tell our staff here a lot of times, half my job is putting out fires and half of my job right is if you're sitting in the seat, whatever seat that is, culture is your job, vision is your job, standards are your job. And in order to hold people in those spaces not everybody likes that we work with student athletes 18 to 22, maybe now 26, depending on how lawsuits go but people who write, like a lot of people who for them in athletics, this is it's not a job or it's not something that you do, it's not a club Like this is an identity for a lot of people and so people take things personally.
Allison Kern:So I think a lot of one just experiences I've had is I couldn't make it up if I tried, and because I've already seen it, I can one see it coming.
Allison Kern:But there's not a lot of things that are going to happen that are going to throw me off, because I've already had crazy stuff happen to me that are going to happen, that are going to throw me off because I've already had crazy stuff happen to me.
Allison Kern:I've already seen crazy stuff happen, and so being in a space where I'm not just comfortable being uncomfortable and my team jokes like I love an uncomfortable situation because I'm not uncomfortable because it does start and stop with me, but the other part of that is in the seat it's your job to shoulder the uncomfortable for other people. So when change is happening, when I'm asking more of people, when there are things at our institution or in the NCAA or in our conference or in the world whatever it looks like that we can't control, you don't need a leader. When the sun is shining and the waves are good, right, you need a leader and one person. When the boat is capsizing and nobody knows what to do and so much of what we're doing in terms of leadership is in the gray that just because I'm in the gray, it doesn't help our team to also be trying to maneuver in the gray, and so it's my job to create spaces where I'm shouldering the uncomfortableness for everybody else, to create stability.
Dr. Jen Fry:You know, I absolutely love that, because what you said about thriving in discomfort so many leaders do not thrive in discomfort. They don't even know how to handle it. They don't know what it feels like to them, what it tastes like to them, and so because of that, when one piece of discomfort hits them, they lose their craft because they haven't even had to think about okay, this is uncomfortable for me, how do I shoulder it, how do I truth tell and let my team know I can still be dependable and I'm still going to be here in the middle of this discomfort. And so many leaders I mean, if you think about it, so many programs don't sit there and talk about the intense discomfort you will have as a leader at all times, yeah, and I think the follow-up to that right is.
Allison Kern:It's not. I think that there's a fine line between losing humanity in leaders and understanding that everybody is going through things. But it's also not up for people to feel empathy for my discomfort, because that's why I?
Allison Kern:sit in the seat If I didn't want to sit in the seat right Like, and it's people joke like that's why they pay me the big bucks and it paid the big bucks. But right, it does still start and stop with me and so it's not my team's job to have empathy and are literally it's my decision. Do it right. If you're a coach or you're an assistant coach, like, you're constantly in spaces where there are other people who are your peers in your space that you can go vent to or that you can commiserate, right, when something happens and I'm not saying everybody's complaining all the time, but right, there is solidarity or camaraderie you feel in a lot of those spaces and when you get to the chair, there isn't it's you.
Allison Kern:You can find those people other places, but it's not in your space and that, oh absolutely not, and that but that's something that I think people are really unprepared for is the solitude of that, because I don't want to say loneliness and I don't want to say isolation, because if you do it right, then you've created a community or you have spaces outside of there, but at the end of the day, in the most uncomfortable spots and like the hardest points, it's just you in it and that people find that's something that feels shocking the first couple of times you're experiencing it.
Dr. Jen Fry:What you talked about, that solitude, is so completely right Because, like you said, in your immediate space, in the athletic department, if stuff goes awry for a head coach, they have other head coaches they can depend on. If something goes awry for an assistant, the assistants can go lean on other assistants, staff members, head coaches but you are at the top of that pyramid. And, yes, you can talk to your president, but your president ain't got time. Yes, you can maybe talk to other, like VPs or deans, but they don't have the understanding of the situation like you do. And so it is that you have to lean on people outside of the department. You have to lean on friends, other people in those positions. But I think solitude is a good word for it, because you have to be able to sit with it and understand the discomfort, understand the hardness of it, but not really allow it to beat you up and attack you.
Allison Kern:Yeah, I'll let you know when I get better at the second part of that.
Dr. Jen Fry:Listen, girl, tell me, as if someone who owns two businesses let me know, let me know when you figure that out. So we talked about thriving discomfort. What would number two be?
Allison Kern:So I think number two kind of building on that is your ability to make hard conversations, not hard, at least for you, right.
Allison Kern:Because I think the more we call them hard conversations for me in building culture, the more we put them in this space where they feel uncommon. And I believe that, like our team jokes, like I love conflict, I love conflict and conflict, I think everyone thinks you're right throwing punches or you're coming at people, or like someone talked out of the side of the neck, now here I'm coming for someone. But conflict is really just anything where we're not all in alignment and there feels like there's there's some kind of push against the grain, and so hard conversations should be most of the conversations that you're having, because if you aren't, one stuff's really fake. It's not rainbows and sunshine all the time when things are real, and if you want things to be good, things have to be real. And two, because, again, talking about people's livelihoods or something that we own or things that we feel really passionate about, hard conversations we think of as like, oh, I have to fire somebody, or, oh, someone's not meeting standards and I have to talk about this, or I'm really mad about something.
Allison Kern:But hard conversations aren't one-sided, because if we're not building a culture where someone else on the other side of the table can hear the things that I have to say for what it is, or we can both come out of it in a space. It's not. It's only it's uncomfortable for me. But it's not a hard conversation because they don't think it's hard. I'm just talking to somebody and so I think we we call it coaching conversations because I think that how you communicate with people expresses to them what you think about them. So if I'm like man, I can't have this conversation with Jen because she's just she's not going to take it well and, yeah, I wish she was better'm like man, I can't have this conversation with Jen because she's just she's not going to take it well and, yeah, I wish she was better. But, like I, just she doesn't do well in these conversations.
Allison Kern:What I'm really saying is I don't think you're smart enough, I don't think you're mature enough, I don't think you're capable of being any better than you are, or you aren't worth the effort that it takes me to have those conversations with you, because that's really what it is. And so having hard conversations and understanding that, oh, it's not personal. Of course it's personal, like everybody owns this. Of course it's personal. It doesn't mean that it's about a reflection of who you are as a person, that it's about a reflection of who you are as a person, but it's personal and your inability to meet a standard doesn't make you dumb or it doesn't make you bad. It might make you one the wrong fit or two you didn't know. And most people, I think, want to be held to really high standards and usually if you expect more of people, they will rise and meet the occasion, but they can't. If you say this is as good as you can be and I don't need to invest any more time or energy into this, 100%.
Dr. Jen Fry:You know, I talked about conflict a lot and, like you said, it's not hard for me.
Dr. Jen Fry:I navigate these types of things all the time, and there was a quote I heard that really resonates with me, and it says conflict shows us the depth of our relationships.
Dr. Jen Fry:There you go Right. And if, when, right now, higher ed is under attack, college athletes in some aspect is under attack and you're going to need deeper relationships, you're going to need to have people in your corner, beside you, and that means that there's going to have to be a level of conflict that's occurred within that relationship, and you cannot have relationships that have depth to them that there hasn't been some type of grappling, that you make it over the other part of the hill, and so it, like man, the how you communicate tells you so much about them, and that's true, and it tells you a lot about yourself that you are so scared to have this conversation with someone, and you have to figure out why. Maybe it's not even how they handle, but how you handle it, and so there has to be some self-reflection on what about these things makes it so hard that you're not even willing to engage in something that will make you better, them better or the department better yeah, and I think it goes back a little bit to that discomfort.
Allison Kern:Some of it is especially when you first get to the seat, like it's reps the more you do it right, the more you can read it or the more you can hear it. But it's also a commitment to, I think, sitting in the seat, cause we're talking about leadership, but managing and leadership are not the same thing.
Allison Kern:They overlap on the Venn diagram, but there are plenty of people who are managers, who are not leading people, and leadership in and of itself is about like I'm trying to take people to a place for themselves and for us and I want you to do better and I think you know you said it talks about the depth of your relationship. I think the ability to have conflict is a direct reflection of how much trust you have in that space.
Allison Kern:Because the trust we have, the more we can have that conflict, because you trust that, one, I am who I say I am and, two, I'm invested in you and I trust that you're invested in me, in us, in the vision and whatever this is, and so we're both trying to get to the same place and you need conflict to get there. Or we're not on the same page or we have to figure it out, but we all agree that this is where we wanted to get and this is what you needed to do.
Dr. Jen Fry:And I can trust that you're going to treat me right during a hard moment yes, that's also a part of it is that I can trust that we'll have this conflict but you're not going to scream at me, cuss at me, belittle me, go after my job. That you're going to treat me in the right way so that we can navigate through it. Because it's not the fact that we're having conflict, it's the other stuff around it how you've treated me. How, every time we engage, you make it seem like my job's going to be gone. Well, I can't engage in conflict if I'm always worried about my job.
Allison Kern:Or that I didn't say it.
Allison Kern:And so now everybody's walking around, like you and I know that we've been having hard conversations for a while and I won't just say the thing, and that, to me, is just as disrespectful and that lack of trust is, if this isn't a good fit, this isn't a good fit, and to treat you with the dignity to just and the respect to just say that it's like I don't know.
Allison Kern:It's like being in a relationship, right and like you know, for months somebody wants to break up with you and instead y'all are in this weird limbo because nobody will pull the trigger. It doesn't make it feel any better. You know now your feelings just aren't getting considered, or I as a person, I'm not getting considered. So, even if it's not the thing that you want to hear, you can trust one that I am who I say I am, I'm going to make this. You know you don't know everything about what I'm doing, but you know that you understand the process with which I'm going to make decisions and you understand that I'm consistent. So, even if you don't like, even if you don't like me, you don't like any of those things. You know those three things to be true.
Dr. Jen Fry:Absolutely, Absolutely Number three. What's number three?
Allison Kern:Yeah, I think number three is having the intestinal fortitude to be committed to your vision, because all of these just build on each other. It's much easier for me to have hard conversations if we're talking about standards, because I know what the vision looks like, I know what it's going to take to get there, and when you're sitting in the seat, especially at first, I'm the only person that can see it, I can convey a vision, but it's not going to happen tomorrow. And so when you're really clear on, I can see it, taste it, touch it, smell it. I know what it is. And I've got to gut out all of the hard stuff in the in-between, as people start to see it, or as we start realizing it, or as the work is paying off, because in the in-between start realizing it, or as the work is paying off because in the in between nobody can see it but you, and when nobody else can see it, it makes the work it takes to get there hard. And so every decision, every hard conversation like I don't believe people are like oh, you get what you work for, you get what you deserve, you get what you tolerate. And so if, if we decided what these standards are, we decide like.
Allison Kern:This is what the vision looks like. It's so many small. Part of why you know brands fall apart or people don't have integrity is because you can say 10 no's but then it's like can you say 15 no's? Can you every time you see the wrong sign? Every time you see the wrong sign, every time you see something wrong, every time you call it out because if I don't say it then I'm tolerating, then it's an okay thing to do. And the stamina to do that every time and to hold the line one is exhausting, but two, it does feel it feels exhausting for everybody else because they don't see what you can see at first and most of the time.
Dr. Jen Fry:Yeah, go, oh, go on. Sorry, there's a little lab. Keep going, allison.
Allison Kern:This is good yeah just, I think most of the time, like I think lots of people have great vision, I think lots of people have good ideas, but sometimes, like it takes a while. I've been here four years and we're we're now. I mean we're crushing it. I have incredible people we're having. I mean we're crushing it. I have incredible people, we're having a lot of success. Things are happening and it's really exciting.
Allison Kern:But nobody thought it was exciting in year one, when I was like this is what it can be, and people were like okay, and lots of times everybody comes in. It's like the first day of practice, everybody's practicing like a national champion on the first day of practice. Everyone, everybody, everybody's won a national championship on the first day of practice. But when it comes January, your conference season and you're on the road three weekends and it just do you, do you still have it like? Do you still have the intestinal fortitude at that point? And that's when people fizzle out. Everybody had great visions at first and if it takes longer than you think it will, or it takes the time that it takes, do you have the stamina to keep saying no or keep holding the line or keep doing things the way you said you were going to do them things the way you said you were going to do them?
Dr. Jen Fry:And do you have the stamina to say no when you know your mortgage might be affected, when there are certain things in your life that would be affected, if you're like, well, if I just said yes this one time, it would help with this. And then, once you say the yes the first time, once you accept money from the mob the first time, the yes the first time, once you accept money from the mob the first time, baby, you're in. That's it, you're in, baby you out, you're not out. Once you accept those few dollars because you really needed it, you are in, you cannot get out. And so I, like, I agree with that, and it's always good.
Dr. Jen Fry:One thing you know from having a tech startup it's always going to take longer than you thought. Yeah, always. And you know it is because, allison, your thought process is how you, how you built it, it's going to be with all the perfect pieces in place. All the perfect pieces. That's how you. You built this lego set, thinking you had all 3000 pieces, not realizing halfway through you're missing pieces 80 through 95, and you guys go find those pieces.
Allison Kern:I have never once put together something from Ikea that wasn't missing an Allen wrench and three bolts. Not one time figure stuff out. Yeah, that's 100. Okay, yeah, my nephew is 14 and we were with his friends a couple months ago and he was talking about no, you got to be no, this is. It's nonchalant, right, like you don't care about things. It's nonchalant. I'm like now I'm big chalant, bigchalant, right, like you don't care about things. It's nonchalant, and I'm like no, I'm big chalant, big chalant about everything, chalant as they can come.
Allison Kern:It's a big chalant.
Dr. Jen Fry:It's why you can't be chalant about stuff. Nonchalant about stuff, you can't be you, you can't be about things. And so I mean, like when you said, when you're building anything a team, an athletic department, a tech startup, whatever you're building it's always going to take longer than you would have ever imagined. And the things that you're going to need to go the humps, you're going to have to go over the obstacles are things you have never envisioned. You know, I was talking to my chief of staff, dawn, today, and we were talking about it feels like Mario court cart and they're throwing banana pills in front of you. And I told Don, I said her job right now is to figure out those banana pills so that we can make it a smoother experience. Like that's your job right now is those figure out those banana pills, because you can plan everything. What Mike Tyson say is that you get punched in the face.
Allison Kern:That's a hundred percent. And it's such a good analogy because you'll reach that first hurdle where you think you've done it and you've been in almost a whole lap for first, and then somebody's got a heat seeking missile and they find you immediately that little red shell comes up and you're just like I didn't it's like in uh dmx's movie belly, when that red dot hits you yo that's old I don't know the.
Allison Kern:I don't know the demographic of your podcast, because that's an excellent reference, but people around here tell me that they don't. They don't get my jokes because I'm too old. Oh, they're really just like a hundred percent.
Dr. Jen Fry:But that I know. I know some of my folks are gonna understand that belly reference is a classic 100%, 100%. Okay, so we just talked about having the fortitude. Now what's number four?
Allison Kern:yeah. So I think building off the, you get what you tolerate is to your point about being to my being big chalant. You got to decide what baggage you're going to sign up for, and I think this is as a coach, as an AD, as anybody sitting in the seat, because you're right, pieces 80 through 102 aren't going to be in the Lego bag. Or you thought you were building Legos on a coffee table and now you have to move the whole thing to an open cardboard box somewhere, like nothing is going to be. You're not working in perfect circumstances, and so what's the baggage like? In the integrity of whatever your vision is, what's the baggage you're willing to sign up for? Because I think coaching is the same thing, right?
Allison Kern:Everybody now is in the transfer portal.
Allison Kern:You're taking on recruits, anybody who's good, who's transferring.
Allison Kern:They're not transferring because everything was perfect, and so it's either baggage that fits for you and is what you're willing to if I'm willing to put my name on it, what's the baggage I'm willing to co-sign and what's the baggage that doesn't fit with my vision, values, the integrity of how I show up.
Allison Kern:That can't be part of that, because I'm not taking money from the mob, but I'm willing to say that these three things, they don't have to be important, like everything can't be the most important thing. And so I can, right as a baseball coach, say, yeah, I really wanted everybody to use the same bats, but I care more that we all wear stirrups and you do these three things in the dugout and so I don't have to care about the bats because we're still working with people, and so everything can't be exactly the way I want it to be. So what kind of baggage? And if you decide ahead of time, what am I? What are my non-negotiables? What's the baggage that I am not willing to take on? It makes everything else not feel like a compromise, because I already decided that it wasn't one of the most important things.
Dr. Jen Fry:Well, and I think it's about even thinking to the point of like at the hardest moment, the most stress what are those non-negotiables? Because everything is sexy when everything's fine. Oh, I know, I know these are the non-negotiables. I would never do that. But then the mob comes knocking at your door and it's like I know you're late on your mortgage, we can help you out right, and will you be homeless or not?
Allison Kern:like you got a decision. Well, and I think it is right.
Allison Kern:Like what are the things I'm willing to get fired over, not to put it crassly no a, my president might listen to this podcast but, like she knows, like, right, what are the things like from an integrity standpoint? Here's who I told you I am, here's how I move, here's what I do and here are the things I'm just willing to get fired over and that's okay, which again sounds easy to say on a podcast when I don't have, you know, four kids and a house payment and soccer bills and groceries. But once you, it's like being in the hundred. Once I decide, like I'm a person who does this, or here's what we are like, it's not a decision anymore.
Allison Kern:I already decided we do that with standards here, standards here, right, like if you aren't meeting standards and we're having one of those hard conversations, I'm not deciding in the moment how this is going to go, because we already decided in august. Now I'm just executing. If you're a head coach and somebody violates your team rules, you don't have to decide what to do in the moment, because y'all already decided. Here's what the standards are, here's what the consequences are. This is not hard for me, it doesn't take bandwidth, because I already made the decision.
Dr. Jen Fry:Now I'm just executing accordingly 100%, and that I mean it goes back to like what you said with the layers of being able to thrive and discover. It's always easy to talk about the consequences when there's no, there's no championship on the line, right, there's no, your contracts on the line, all of those things. Again, what you said, like what you're willing to be fired for because everyone could. Here's all my standards, here's my values. Okay, your potential player of the year athlete just did x, y and z and it's a conference championship. What? What you're gonna do? Because you also know, if you don't win this conference championship, your contract's not being renewed.
Allison Kern:What you're gonna do and what am I gonna do? Right, because if that's my coach and our our coach, no right, like I have their back, like we'll deal with it in-house, but like, as long as our coaches are communicating with me and doing the things that they said that they were going to do as the people that I hired, I ride for them, no matter what, 100%.
Dr. Jen Fry:So now I've got a coach doing the same thing.
Allison Kern:So if that coach needs to win a conference championship, it probably means I need to win a conference championship if I'm going to stand 10 toes down on the decisions that they make. If I said I support you no matter what and I already signed on to whatever your baggage is, can you move, knowing that you're not going to have to come into my office and be questioned about whatever it is appropriately obviously?
Dr. Jen Fry:Yep, well, and I think that goes back to when you're in the chair. You're in, there's going to be pressures that you're going to have that other people won't have a clue about. Yes, and head coaches don't realize that, right they. I, as a former head coach, the way I siloed everything, everything was about me, right, everything. And so coaches aren't thinking in that kind of big holistic picture of of what the AD is actually having to shoulder.
Allison Kern:Yeah, and in most cases, right, we don't want them to right Cause, if we want you to be really good, then your program has to be the most important thing. And it's an interesting dynamic, I think, for coaches, because on one hand, right, they are in complete control of a program that they have full autonomy over. That is their whole life. Right, it's not a job, it's their identity, it's their reputation, it's their mortgage, it's all the work, and they move in a fiefdom. And then at the same time, they are part of a department where they aren't that and they don't move autonomously. And occasionally we do ask them to think outside the silo and we have to think about the big picture or we have to talk about how we're moving as a program and, just like on your team, you do what's best for the team, not what's best for one player.
Allison Kern:On my team, I do what's best for the team and not what's best for one program. And it's a really hard line, it's a hard space to be effective. I think, as a head coach, to do both well, let alone really well.
Dr. Jen Fry:Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, 100%, 100%. This is good. Okay, we're coming up on number five. Alison Kern, what is your, your fifth thing that they got to know? Bet on you.
Allison Kern:Mm. I think that that's an easy thing to say, and I think it's if you are an underrepresented population in whatever seat you sit in, and I can say that I both I am and also I sit in a place of a lot of privilege still, and so I can own how easy that is to say when I get the benefit of the doubt when people might not, and I get to move in a way that some people might not, and I can totally acknowledge that. But I think, as I try to be an effective leader one, I want really smart people around me, right, like I hope I want everybody sitting at my leadership table to know more about their things than I know. I don't need any more me's and I can take in all of that information. And most of the time when I'm asking you to be an expert in something, you tell me what we're going to do and that's how we're going to roll. Asking you to be an expert in something, you tell me what we're going to do and that's how we're going to roll.
Allison Kern:But I always assume, to your point about coaches aren't thinking about the big picture. I always assume that when people above me are making decisions, they have a piece of information that I don't have, but when you trickle down from our seat, everybody knows more than you, right? Like that's just the thing in athletics Everybody knows more than the coach. Everybody played junior high basketball and now they got it Everybody's playing armchair quarterback.
Dr. Jen Fry:Yeah.
Allison Kern:Like all of those things are happening.
Allison Kern:But the way that I describe my job is I don't have a lot of power, I have a lot of responsibility, because everybody wants to make decisions, but the job of this seat is to be accountable to the consequences of those decisions and nobody else has to be accountable to consequences. When I cut me and you bleed, then you can drive this, then you can drive the boat, and I want to hear everybody's perspective and I want to take in all the information, but, at the end of the day, the only people that have to be no matter how much people want to be the person that makes the decision, nobody wants to be accountable to the consequences and it's my job to be accountable to the consequences.
Dr. Jen Fry:Well, I mean, I think the thing about it is that everyone wants to wear the t-shirt, everyone wants the VIP pass to walk everywhere, everyone wants all those types of things, but they, like you said, don't want to be held responsible for the consequences. And, let's be honest, the consequences we're talking about are not just in the department. The consequences are the media. The consequences are, I mean, the amount of emails that you get from people. They don't want an email box blown up. They don't want the true consequences of if I make this decision. Will it show up on ESPN? Will it show up on D1, d2 ticker? Will it show up in these different spaces that people will consistently be ripping me apart because of the decision that they didn't have 99% information about?
Allison Kern:That part and that they didn't have to think through. You think that this decision affects these two people in this team and you don't think about the five other groups of constituencies that this might affect, or the political consequences of this, or how this looks to your point in the court of public appearance, or all of these people that you didn't have to worry about it's my job to manage expectations or all of these people that you didn't have to worry about. It's my job to manage expectations. So I'm not saying that I'm not going to make the decision and people aren't going to be unhappy, but you should know that I knew it was going to make you and I knew how it was going to affect you, whether it was positively or negatively. I thought about it before I made the decision.
Dr. Jen Fry:I mean, what you're saying is so true and so powerful and I know that there have probably been decisions you've made which have been 100% the right decision and you've gotten destroyed in public of us knowing each other, but but, yeah, and that's but.
Allison Kern:But to go back to right, like, do you have the intestinal fortitude or are you committed to the vision or the integrity of? You know, to me, integrity is always. You know, to me integrity is always when I say I do this job with integrity, yeah, it means that you don't do weird shady stuff and yeah, it means that you don't have HR violet, like those are a given. But to me, doing this job and doing it with integrity means that I'm always going to make decisions that are in the best interest of our university and our program with the information that I have, regardless of whether or not they're the best decisions for me personally and almost always the best decisions for the institution and for the program are not the best decisions for me personally.
Dr. Jen Fry:People don't realize that part, that you have to be willing to make decisions that are not going to be good for you, that are not going to be the bestest, and you have to be okay with that, even if it's painful.
Allison Kern:If you sit in the seat, you are actively choosing. There are times when you know like logistically right, I know that I'm actively choosing to make my life harder.
Dr. Jen Fry:I know that I'm actively choosing to make my life harder 100%, and I just you know the reason why I thought back to our conversation and really wanted to do this because I, I and I know you've been through a whole bunch of leadership, shit and classes. They're not talking about this stuff. They're not. They're not. This is the realest, real right. They're not telling you like, this is the stuff you. You are going to come to a point in your life in in this position, where the decision that you have to make that better for everyone else is going to shit on you and you have to still make it. You still have to make that decision.
Allison Kern:Without question, and I think and you've seen enough of it, I'm not saying that there's not merit in leadership. Obviously I've been a beneficiary of a lot of spaces and, frankly, just a lot of people who have poured into me, right like I didn't do any of this by myself, but I've been really, really fortunate, um, throughout my career. But you said it to start the podcast, like the theoretical leadership assumes that you haven't been punching them out I think about starting.
Dr. Jen Fry:I think about you know, my tech startup everyone on social media talks about. You can develop an app in two seconds. You can do the social media is sexy for app 100. Then, 14 months later, right then, so sexy. Then they'll be like uh, you know, we, we're valuing this at 20 million dollars. We got a raise of this. We did all these things. You pay attention to the point zero, zero, zero, one percent, because the reality of it, day in, day out, you've been punched in the mouth. You gotta be punched in the mouth. Yep, whiteness. It's a lot of those unicorns and that's what they talking. There was someone who said that she will never read a leadership book or a self-help book from a white man. She will never do it because you, you got a wife, you got help.
Allison Kern:We don't have that is that the woman that called david goggins a deadbeat dad? I saw that, oh we don't have that.
Dr. Jen Fry:So you're. You're writing from a place that you got everything helping taking care of. There's like a tweet. This guy was like I was able to. I have six kids. I finished this book, I all. I have to find that tweet. And they were like you have a wife that you were able to accomplish all of that. Wake up at four in the morning, go to my ice bath because of your wife yeah and it's.
Allison Kern:But that's also, I think, to your point about when you're talking about what people don't talk about in leadership or in books or wherever like the most important decisions you're making for your startup are happening 12 months in, after you've taken all those body blows when it's way harder to make those right, those right Like now. Your eyes cut open, mix like putting the nickel on it, and that's when you have to make the most important decision of the entire thing Right Cause, that's, that's true.
Dr. Jen Fry:Listen, you, you. That, I think, is so accurate. And people don't realize that you're sitting there with sore ribs, that you're, you're, you're, I am bleeding Right. Try and put some, some strips there. You got any baby? You around three.
Dr. Jen Fry:I didn't do enough cardio for this you, you round three, you ain't even around 10, you went around three. And I was literally talking to don about this, of like the grit that you have to have to keep going, and to some people they can't even fathom it. And I always think about when I talk to people who maybe didn't get a grant they wanted or didn't win a pitch competition, and they're like I'm through with this and I'm like that's going to make you stop Not getting a grant. Oh baby, you ain't built for this. Because you, being an AD, especially in these days, owning a startup, you have to be built differently because even with your your ribs wrapped and your eye bleeding, you still have to go out and lead a team and make decisions and keep your eye on the vision of the future, even with all that stuff going on with you. Because there, to me, there is no other option.
Allison Kern:There isn't that's and that's. I've been described as having a chip on both shoulders, but I think part of why I think that we are really effective at hiring is because when we identify the qualities and people that we want one I call it the figure it out gene, right who?
Allison Kern:are the people that take ownership of things and they're going to figure it out and they're going to get it right or they're going to do it well, no matter what it is. But the other part is, I would much rather have somebody we ask questions to figure out are you somebody that feels like you have something to prove, whether that's true, false or otherwise? Are you right? In Michael Jordan, I took that personally, like are you someone who feels like you have something to prove? Because if you are, your motor and your resilience and your grit are going to get you a lot farther than someone that has more experience, that knows more things. You can teach anybody anything. You can't teach people to figure it out that knows more things. You can teach anybody anything. You can't teach people to figure it out. You can't teach people ownership or to have a motor or to be relentless. Those are things like do you have something to prove? And when you prove it, do you have something else to prove? I think that's part of it.
Allison Kern:I'm just dumb enough to think that I haven't gotten there. I'm sitting in a seat. I can't believe that I have this job and I'm like okay, but I haven't gotten there. I don't know what it is. I haven't gotten there.
Dr. Jen Fry:A hundred percent. You know, I think we're. I'm three years in with my tech company. I'm I don't know 10 years in with speaking and still like that next level. I'm always it's, and I think you know this. At certain levels you realize the rooms that you need to be in, right, like you'll be there and you'll be like, okay, I'm here, but I just heard about this room or saw the. Now it's about how do I get into that, that next room? Cause it's that next level, echelon, and how you keep getting there because that's where it is, is those next levels. There's different conversations where the money is different. That's for me like, yeah, we're fine here, but baby, I, I've seen that next level. How do I get there?
Allison Kern:that's. Did you watch? Um, I haven't seen a ton of them, but kevin hart's like heart to heart, where he's got all those celebrities in his like wine cellar just shooting shit. So he's got one with jay-z and he and it like really a friend of mine actually sent me the clip because I hadn't seen it and it really resonated with me where he's talking to jay-z and he's like how, like right, you go from being on the corner like doing whatever, and then, like you've arrived, like how do you manage that? Obviously I'm paraphrasing, so don't go back and watch it and be like that's not what he said, but for for the people listening, like don't, don't quote me on this, but what does white girl say?
Allison Kern:get back in your lane. Get back in your lane, but and he says he goes. You know, like once you figure out to your point that there's this room, you're doing everything you can to try to get into this room. And then you get in the room and most people are so happy to be there that they don't realize there are some people in that room that know that there's a door in the back and not everybody knows that there's a door in the back to another room and most people are so happy to just have gotten in the room that they don't even notice that there's a door in the back, cause there are levels to this and sometimes you thought you were at the final boss and you realized there's a whole other tier to the game that nobody told you about all right.
Dr. Jen Fry:So I was at nba, uh, summer league. I was in there talking to a friend and you know he's chatting with me about some special dinner, and so now what I've started to do is, whenever anyone mentions something, I my me. My main question is how can you help me get to it? Like, once you've mentioned it, I was like, and so I get into this room, which I am shocked at the people in there. But that's the thing, is that?
Allison Kern:I was in there and I was like ain't that always the way?
Dr. Jen Fry:and? And so one of the one of the people is a is a huge nba star. I didn't even know who he was. I was like wikipediaing him.
Allison Kern:I was like, oh, that's who it is, and he's at my table and I say that Not standing behind the digital recognition software, like, okay, that's who he is now.
Dr. Jen Fry:And so I say that because it's another room to be in and that's where deals are made and checks are written and positions are given, and you can't just be happy with just being in that first room, that that first room yes, it's a little difficult to get into, but that's not the room you want end up on. And how do you keep, like you said, seeing someone go through that door, talking about it, saying, hey, do you know how to get in that door? Maybe there have been times where I've went around the back to get in and been like, okay, how can I not be noticeable that I just found my way in here, like I will sit there, and I hate that the word opportunist has such a bad rap to it Because I'm going to take if that door is open. And the person was like yo, can you open this door for me? I got to carry these drinks, maybe I'm going to help you with those drinks and I'm disappearing into the crowd but but who do we describe as an opportunist?
Allison Kern:because more often than not, when we're saying someone is an opportunist or someone is transactional I just I talked about this in something, a different panel I was on, I think like a year ago but when we're saying, oh, someone's an opportunist or someone's trying to climb, or someone's not authentic or someone's whatever, we're usually describing the people that we want to gatekeep from those rooms. Cause we're not describing people when you got in that room and you're like, how did that person get it? And that person doesn't even know they're in that room, cause they were always going to get in that room, cause someone was going to bring up regardless well they were gonna get.
Dr. Jen Fry:They're in that room and, like you said, they're always getting taken into those rooms, so they don't even know the importance of the room and they're just there and they just keep being able to tag along with their friend and not having a clue. But, baby, I will, I will go through a window, I will, like I. You know, this past month I went to martha's vineyard and this was like the second time and martha's Vineyard is talk about bougie and up there. But then, once I started seeing the pictures of the events that I didn't go to, I'm like, okay, literally making notes. I need to figure out how to get to those events. How do I get in to be around those people? It's those next levels, right? Like you said, there's layers to this shit and I'm trying to always keep getting to those levels because no one's going to do it for us. We have to keep doing it ourselves.
Allison Kern:Yeah, and why wouldn't we? You're great, why wouldn't we? You got help like right. You have hell of things to offer.
Dr. Jen Fry:Somebody just needs to know and that's the thing is that so many times people are shy about. Well, I just don't want to ask them why? What do you have to lose? You have zero to lose. As we know, all it takes is one, one opportunity, one check, one intro, one thing, and you're going to miss out on that one thing because you were sad man if you don't get out here with that bullshit.
Dr. Jen Fry:So, allison Kern, we can talk for hours. We're going to have to have a part two, because this is phenomenal information. I love it. So the top let me look at my little paper here. So the five things you need to know about being in the chair First, it's a thrive and discomfort. The second is ability to make hard conversations, not hard for you. The third thing is you get what you tolerate, how to have fortitude and being committed to your vision. The fourth thing is what baggage will you sign up for? And then the fifth as always, what we were just talking about is bet on your damn self, always bet on yourself, baby, the way you should be putting money on the table for you. So these are five amazing things. What other things can you tell the people? Anything else you want to leave them with? I?
Allison Kern:think, figuring out. I think it's okay that everything is not for you, and I say that once as a white person, so that's a hard lesson for us to learn. Sometimes, like everything is not for me but I say that more in the way that I think to your point about meeting the right people, or it only takes one, or finding the right room. Not every room and not every room and not every person and not every opportunity is for you, and if you keep the ones that you're trying to fit a square peg in a round hole, you're going to miss out on all of the stuff that is for you in terms of how you can lead authentically places that are a good fit for the things that you're good at. Like I wouldn't be a good ad everywhere. I'm good at the places, the things i're good at Like I wouldn't be a good AD everywhere.
Allison Kern:I'm good at the places, the things I'm good at, where I think that I'm a good fit. Whether I'm good at it or not I guess this remains to be seen but I know the places where I'm like this might not work for me. Who I am is not a good fit for who this institution is.
Allison Kern:And so there's nothing, it's not personal and there's nothing wrong with saying like I know where I'm a fit and I'm going to find the places that are a great fit for me so that I can thrive, and not everything has to be for you. And it doesn't make you less than it doesn't make you a cop out. It doesn't make you any of those things. It means like go be better than everybody else at the things that you're really good at, instead of being mediocre at the same shit everybody else is mediocre at. At the same shit, everybody else is mediocre at.
Dr. Jen Fry:You know, I always wonder when I see coaches who are D2 beasts, like they are winning championships, now they feel like they got to go D1. Like when I see people who are winning extensive national and conference championships at D2, and then they want to go D1, and then they're just average with everyone else. And I'm like why? What about D1 is drawing you so much that you're going to leave this place where you are building a dynasty, where you are building a hall of fame career, but for some reason you feel like d1 is what you need and, baby, all it is is making you like every other average coach and it's I mean you know who like the circumstances of fit and who you work for, and there's not a job in this world that I would take, that would take me away from working for my current president.
Allison Kern:Like I, I'm here for her, I'm thriving. Like we're thriving with her, like there's, there's not going to be anyone better to work for in this entire country than her, and I'm not confused by that.
Dr. Jen Fry:I appreciate this Allison. You are the goat. We're going to have to do the same thing in Vegas next year.
Allison Kern:That's a run it back. That's the realest reel.
Dr. Jen Fry:That's the realest reel. The run it back Absolutely. I appreciate you, friend. You are great and just keep being awesome with this great stuff.
Allison Kern:I'm gonna try I appreciate you having me on. Thanks for your time.