S4 Ep3: You're Not the Coach in That Car

Your kid gets in the car and asks you the question. What am I doing wrong?

And most of us answer it. We say you're too slow, or you need to get lower, or the coach has favorites and there's nothing you can do. We say something. Because they asked, and they're upset, and silence feels like we don't care.

The reality? A lot of us have no business answering that question. We've never played the sport. We've never coached it. We're guessing, and our guess lands on our kid as gospel — sometimes in direct opposition to what the coach just told them in the gym.

I brought in Dan Mickle for this one. He's a Division III volleyball coach, a sports psychology professional, and someone who's been coaching without a break since 1992. He also happens to be the person who harassed me into finishing my PhD, so we go back. We disagree in this episode, more than once, and I think that's the useful part. He'll tell you the car is a missed opportunity. I'll tell you most parents don't have the emotional regulation to use it well. We're both right, and the gap between us is where the actual work is.

What we agree on: your job isn't to have the answer. It's to teach your kid how to go get it from the person who does.

My book, Before You Blame the Coach, is available for preorder now: https://jenfrytalksyouthsports.com/book

Transcript

Welcome And The Sports Parent Lens

Dr. Jen Fry 0:00

Welcome to Five with Fry. I'm Dr. Jen Fry, and this season we're talking honestly about the hardest parts of being a sports parent. What actually is happening inside you on that sideline, in that car, and in the group chat. There's no shame, no finger pointing, just real conversation. And if you want to go deeper, my new book, Before You Blame the Coach, is available for pre-order. Right now. So let's get started. We have a great educator, expert, my nemesis. Um we have it all right now. This is like the confluence of like all my worlds in one. I feel like it's um Dan, you remember the old cartoon Spy versus Spy?

Dan Mickle 0:49

Absolutely.

Dr. Jen Fry 0:50

That's what I feel like. Spy versus Spy with this, with the black one and the white one. It's very appropriate.

Dan Mickle 0:57

The the pain of watching you have to say all that made all of this worth it.

Dr. Jen Fry 1:03

All of it.

Why The Car Ride Hits Hard

Dr. Jen Fry 1:04

And so I have a book coming out. You know, it's called Before You Blame the Coach. And in chapter five, we talk about parent behavior has athlete consequences. And the reality of the situation is that athlete emotions have never existed in a vacuum, right? They're going to affect all aspects. And the one thing I want to talk about is the kind of what we would say the dreaded car ride home. After the game, win or lose, the car ride home. And many times we hear that that's the parents' opportunity to get out how they felt about playing, not playing, skill, position, all of that stuff. And so I thought that Dan would be a perfect person to talk about kind of this idea of the car ride home. But first, please tell us your accolades. Let the audience of millions know who you are and what you do.

Dan Mickle 2:03

Sure. Um I am currently a Division III college volleyball coach, women's volleyball coach. Um, actually, we were just talking before we started recording. I have been coaching since 1992 nonstop. I haven't had a year off as a coach at some level, high school, college, whatever, since 92. Um professionally, I'm a sports psychology professional, finishing up my doctorate in health sciences. And my main focus, I guess my my research foci would be uh neuro neurodivergent athletes, um, and the needs of that population uh I think is underrepresented in the coaching world. Um, but yeah, so I try and do a lot of postings and social media and really bringing mental health forward for athletes of all ages, but specifically youth athletes. So yeah.

Dr. Jen Fry 3:01

And I will say that Dan was one of the main drivers of me finishing my PhD just out of pettiness, because the amount he harassed me to finish my PhD made sure I had it done in three years.

Dan Mickle 3:19

You know, you know, and I and I won't this is just between us, we won't tell anyone else, but uh part of that was the jealousy. Like I never had the guts just to like do a full stop and pivot and do something like that. So for me, it was pushing you because like I know that like you had to stop your life and like, hey, I'm gonna go do this. And that's that for me, that's what it was. Like, there's no way I was gonna let you fail because like you did a lot, you did something I could never do. Like everything's always been convenient for me. Like, oh, I'm gonna do this because it fits my schedule now, not I'm gonna stop doing this so I can do it. And the fact that you did that to get your uh PhD, like that's why I was not gonna let you fail. Plus, it's just fun picking on you.

Dr. Jen Fry 4:01

Uh both can be true at the same time, and now you're you're almost done with your PhD, and that means I'll have to call you doctor. And although that makes me sick to my stomach, I'm also proud of you because you have all these, you have heathens you're raising, you're coaching, you're doing mental health stuff. Um, Terry won what she went, educational board board of education?

Dan Mickle 4:23

School, school, she's on the school board. Yep.

Dr. Jen Fry 4:25

She's on the school board. Like you were, you were the great um, what was it called? The what we call the president. If the president was a woman, the first you're the great first first man.

Dan Mickle 4:37

First man.

Dr. Jen Fry 4:38

You're the good first man. And so um, I I wanted to talk to you about this topic because I think it's really important.

How The Idea Went Sideways

Dr. Jen Fry 4:45

And we talk a lot about the car ride home and how it can be hurtful to athletes because we see it where parents just unload and ask stuff. But what are your thoughts on the car ride home?

Dan Mickle 4:59

I think it's really, really complex. Um, and I'm gonna try and come at this from multiple angles. So I'll try and let you know which brain, whether it's my coaching brain, my sports psych brain, or my parent brain that's talking at that moment. Um, but but I think I think the origin, like a lot of things, the original concept of it had merit, right? Like the the movement for that started because a lot of athletes hated the drive home and it it became a place for criticism and you know, just nonstop barrage from the parents. So kids are trying to deal with a big win or a big loss and answer all these questions from their parents. Um, and and the goal was never really silence. I don't think the goal was silence, the goal was just reducing the pressure and and kind of building that relationship. Um and I've had I've literally had clients say in one-on-one sessions that I felt like I had to win this game to avoid the car ride home. You know, like okay. Um, but but I think we dialed it back too far. Now, now we've gone so far to make it like, how was your day? I love seeing you play. Like, I get all of that, but I think we're missing moments where we can actually help the athletes and build. And and it's not well, you know, there's good conflict, right? There's there's good hard conversations. And I think maybe we're missing opportunities for growth for our younger athletes to have and learn how to have those tough conversations. Um, but but we're not giving those a chance. Like for me, that's a chance where a kid can learn how to be an advocate for themselves, that car ride home with an uncomfortable conversation, so they can have that with maybe teammates or they can have that with a coach versus you know the parent.

Dr. Jen Fry 6:55

No, I I think a hundred percent that's correct. And it really is that aspect of how to use that time best. And and the thing I'll say is that I just don't think many parents understand advocating for self because they don't do it themselves.

Dan Mickle 7:13

Right.

Dr. Jen Fry 7:14

And so they, I mean, I think we can agree. We see so many times in these different forums of parents complaining, this parent was rude to me, this parent, and I'm not gonna say anything. And it's like, well, well, why not? Why would you not want to advocate for yourself? And then it becomes all of the hypotheticals. Well, what if I then someone thinks I'm causing trouble? Well, what if this person, well, well, well, well, versus saying I have to advocate for myself even amongst all of those constraints. And I think that people are so afraid of any small consequence, they're not doing anything. And so, because of that, they don't have the language or knowledge of how to do it themselves. So then they definitely don't know how to teach their athletes how to do it. And so when their athlete is complaining about not playing, instead of them having questions, okay, well, you know, this is probably something best to talk to your coach, let's role-play the conversation, let's talk, instead of that it being that, it's the parent inside seething and saying, Well, I'll just handle it, I'll just talk about it. And not really using it as an opportunity to both have the conversation of self-advocacy, both have the conversation of navigating hard stuff, both having the conversation about consequences. And either way, there's gonna be consequences. Consequences from your silence, consequences from you standing up. And so I think from a conflict perspective, it's that parents don't have the skill set or the verbiage, which is also why I why I wrote this book, so that they can have some. But they also don't then know how to help their athletes with the language.

Dan Mickle 8:56

Yeah, and I think part of it, and like you get that, like you're the conflict guru. So I don't want to overstep here. But like one of the big biggest things that I do for conflict, whether it's personally or with a team or some, you know, a group I'm working with is the concept of just real-time permission.

Ask Permission Before You Talk

Dan Mickle 9:15

So, from a parent, when my kid gets in the car and she's had a rough match, I just ask, hey, is it okay to have this conversation now? And if she's like, if if Mo's like, no, we are not doing this now, that's it. We'll talk about the music, we'll talk about where we're gonna eat. But nine out of 10 times she's like, Yeah, I need to talk about this. And if I didn't ask that and just assumed we weren't going to talk about it, I just miss an opportunity to really help her out. Right? Because part of the problem I think that people don't look like look at, especially with the car ride home, is our emotions, which drive us in a lot of these situations, right? Like how we act on the court or how we act to our teammates during a tournament is usually driven by our emotions at the moment. And then when we reflect on it 24 hours later, 48 hours later, those emotions aren't as strong. So we just don't think that they played such a part of it, but we were driven by those emotions. Yeah, so I think not talking in the car diminishes the emotion of the situation, which was probably a main driver of the situation. So I think we're not getting a truthful conversation then when we wait.

The 24 Hour Rule Debate

Dan Mickle 10:26

And that goes to like the the broader conversation of I don't like the the 24-hour rule, like don't talk to the coach for 20. No, I don't need you to come up my face as soon as we lose a match, but I I just don't know that like waiting 24 hours to talk to someone is always the best answer, either. You know, so I I think that the timing is an issue with the car ride home as well.

Dr. Jen Fry 10:48

I I can say I agree and I disagree. I agree with you know, this the aspect first of permission, and it teaches, I think that we just do a bad job of talking about boundaries, of talking about permission, and that it's okay if someone says, no, I don't want to talk about it right now. No, I don't, I don't want to hear you talk about something. Because I think we have this idea that people are always open to the the dumping versus do people have time to dump? Do people have time to take it and and be able to manage it? And so to ask permission, I think it just goes back to many adults haven't had that opportunity of ask, do you want to talk about this? And so it's something that they have to learn to navigate through because they have that trauma. I mean, I don't think my mom ever asked me, Do you want to talk about this? I like that that would be so far-fetched from Carol Fry doing that because she never was asked that. And so much of it is generational of be able to have the ability to ask the question. And if someone says no, being okay with the no versus they say they don't want to talk about it, it's like, well, are you sure? Just a little bit, and then all this goading into making someone talk about what they don't want to talk about, and giving people athletes the permission to say no or yes, and then people take it as it is. You know, your thing on the 24-hour rule, I know that's your hot, spicy take. And I think my pushback on that is do parents at the time have the emotional regulation to have the conversation?

Dan Mickle 12:35

Probably not, but but if we don't open the door to them, we don't know. So I'm not saying that if someone comes up all hot within five hours that we have to have that conversation, but the option should be there. So I would have the right to be like, hey, you're not in the right mindset, we're not having this conversation now. But to have like a blanket policy of this is the time, that's what bothers me.

Dr. Jen Fry 13:04

Do parents have the emotional regulation to take the no? Because how many parents do you know they're coming in hot and spicy, and you say you don't have the emotional regulation right now to have the conversation, they're like, okay, coach, right? versus now it gets even uglier in ramps. And I think that's the thing, is that in a hypothetical situation where people have their emotions under control and can have the conversation, that's a different story. But the problem is that many people don't have the emotional regulation to have the actual conversation or to take what is said, and then when you tell them no, we can't talk about it, it lights them up even more. Or I talk to Dan because I know Dan and I can have this real conversation, but then I can't have it with John. And if I tell John no, we're not gonna talk, well, you talk to Dan about it, and I think it causes too many bigger issues versus saying we need 24 hours to get our heads under control because at those moments, the emotion the emotional regulation to have the actual conversation the way it should, which is not cornering the coach, right? Not doing all this stuff, it just isn't there.

Dan Mickle 14:16

Um, I I I think I think in a way we're saying the same thing. I just think that we would have to define the parameters of the situation. Like, I think cornering the coach at an event is completely off limits. Um there certainly needs to be time. My problem is I would love to see how much that actually works out because, in my experience, when there's that rule, what happens in the 24-hour period is parent A is now calling parent B and like can you believe what happened this weekend? And now all of a sudden you got half the team getting pitchforks coming at when what was a single parent issue is now become a multi-parent because they rallied everyone up. They filled those 24 hours complaining to someone else, and and you know, you know what I mean. So I think we have to find the balance there, but I think that goes back to my bigger conversation for everything coaches, clubs, youth

Communication Norms And Real Conflict

Dan Mickle 15:10

sports. I honestly think the biggest single problem in all of you sports is communication. And and I think if you communicate what those parameters are, set, you know, like another thing that I do is for our conflicts on on our team and the teams I work with, is we do conflict norming. Like this is what conflict is going to look like for us. You know, are other people going to be involved? Is it going to be in public view? Is it going to be behind closed doors? You know, like we set those parameters. I think if coaches and clubs and well and parents, because they would eventually get told these things, got those parameters and it was communicated to them, things would go a little bit smoother.

Dr. Jen Fry 15:51

Well, 1000%. I think and that's one thing I talk about, you know, is time and location is very important when you're talking about conflict. Time and location is critical. A, because no conflict has ever been solved with 10 people hanging around watching. That's why whenever you have a group, a group, a conflict in like a Slack channel or teams at work, it's never gonna go well. You got one person putting the eyes, one person, you know, putting the thumbs up, one person being like, I agree, and two people were battling it back and forth in like that's never gonna work. And the reality of it is that some people don't know how to navigate conflict person to person. They need to have the troops surrounding them to get their guts to be able to say this thing. And how do we talk to our athletes about that? There was a in my book, I can't think of her name, but there's a woman I saw on Facebook that talks about, you know, we have to teach our athletes how not to like each other. Right. Because you're, you know, how many times do we see in these groups, they're like, you know, these other athletes don't like my kid? Okay, girl, that's that's you don't like everyone at work. You don't like Miss Yolanda, you don't like Miss John. But here we are, you're mad that everyone isn't loving your kid. That's gonna happen. Your kid's not gonna love everyone. But how do we make sure that just because your kid doesn't like someone, that they're not ignoring them, they're not uh coincidentally keeping them out of all the groups. Oh, we didn't know you weren't in this group challenge pizza, right? Like all of those things that we see occurring, that those things aren't happening. You're not gonna like, and and to really push that, you're not going to like everyone, you're not going to get along with everyone. But how we handle it is a big thing. And I think communication is a massive thing. I think on both ends, be able to, we have to be good at at giving the conversation and we have to be good at at receiving it. And I think in some points, you know, we will see it happen where a parent is told, okay, your kid can play on your kid will be on the ones team and never play. Your kid will be on the two team and play all the time. The kid, the parent decides, and the kid, okay, we're gonna be on the ones team. They never play and now they're pissed off as hell. Well, my kid doesn't play. I, you know, they said my kid would play minimal, and they played one one play a game, and it's like, but that's what was told to you. There was no lines, you just thought your kid was a uh a unicorn, and even though the coach was like, based on these things, they are never gonna play, you thought something different.

Dan Mickle 18:29

Well, I think that point goes to the the the philosophy and the thinking of well, if I just get my foot in the door, I can show them how valuable are I. But when when you're really not, then it's like oh, I and I've had that. I I I had years ago, um, when I was coaching club, I took three middles and the third middle, I was very honest. Said, look, you're the third middle, you're gonna play one third of the events. Like you're just and I made sure because I'm a note taker, I made sure I marked everything, and it came out to almost exactly a third. She played in one third, and the parents were livid. And I said, I was up front, I communicated all of this to you. Well, we thought that once we saw her, I'm like, Yeah, I know what you thought, but I was honest on my

Teaching Kids To Self Advocate

Dan Mickle 19:13

end. Yep, you know, and I and I think to to kind of bring this back into focus with the car ride is I think I think that's that's the problem. We view that car ride as a single type of conversation, and I think the car ride can go a lot of directions. We just have to be better at like how do we guide that? Like, Mo gets in the car. Okay, are we going to have the emotional or are we gonna talk about uh technical stuff? You know, and and I let her guide that. Like if she gets in and she's upset, I'm like, hey, do you want to talk about this? Yeah, I'm like, okay, do you want to talk about it emotionally, or do you want to talk about the technical aspect? Like you're passing sucked today. Or are we talking about, man, the coach was kind of riding everyone today? You good with that? You know, but I think we just view those conversations in the cars. Everyone thinks of it just as an unload, like the parents just gonna unload all this info. And I I just think again, if we don't ask the right questions and we can't have the right conversation, I think we're just missing a really good opportunity for growth.

Dr. Jen Fry 20:14

Yeah, and I think it's also an opportunity to really learn how to do hard things and to talk through those hard things. And I see parents that are like, well, my kid's too young, too young to go and talk to the coach. 12, 13, no, they're not, because they're gonna have to learn to do it with the teacher. They're gonna have to learn to do it in other aspects. Your kids got a little summer job, they're gonna learn how to advocate, have to advocate for themselves. And it just worries me when we don't, when we think kids are too young for this because we're not teaching the skills. And what is it that we think when they're 18 now it's time to teach it? Well, baby, that's gonna be too late. We have to be teaching that and having those conversations to help build up that resistance and build up that tolerance.

Dan Mickle 21:01

Well, and and this goes back to what we were talking for before we we hopped on here was one of my non-negotiables, you know, if I ever went back to starting a club is which you are, I'm not. Um, and I tried out, would be like these things have to be built into it. Like we expect kids to be advocates, but we never teach them how to be it, whether it's the parents or the club. Like, I think honestly, I think it's part of the club or the coach, not even just club, but I think it's part of the coach's responsibility to teach how to do that as well. Yeah, absolutely. Just like it's a teacher's job to kind of do that in the classroom. Yeah, it's scary talking to your teacher about grades, but if you're a good teacher, you're gonna teach your kids how to have that discussion. And and I think too many times we're we're pawning it off. The coaches are pawning off on the parents, parents are pawning off on the club, and no one's doing it. I I mean, if if we randomly went on Facebook, Facebook right now did a poll in any of those parent groups and said, How much time has your club spent on teaching leadership, communication, conflict? The answer we're gonna get is none, but sports are supposed to inherently teach that. Well, how? Right? I think we had this discussion on a previous episode. You and I just we every time there's budget cuts and they talk about cutting sports, they say, Well, think about all the life skills that sports teach. No, they don't. Sports don't teach anything. The coaches teach something, the team teaches something. But if the coach doesn't teach you how to communicate, playing soccer is not going to teach you how to communicate. Like that environment has to be created, and I just don't think it's happening.

Dr. Jen Fry 22:43

1000%. And and from a coach perspective, I've been meaning to write this and I haven't, right? Coaches have to understand that if we are teaching athletes to advocate for themselves and have a voice, the they're gonna swing the pendulum a little too far. And we can't get upset when they do that. We you're being disrespectful, you're all these things. Of course, if we're teaching these, they have to figure out the middle ground. And the middle ground means they might, with their tone and yell, and we have to be able to be, as a coach, emotionally regulated and say, I understand you're frustrated, but this is not how the conversation is going to happen. And put those parameters in to get them to understand we are gonna still have this, but there are gonna be ways that it needs to occur in order for us both to have the conversation.

Dan Mickle 23:30

Yeah, like the coaches need to not be afraid. I don't know if afraid's the right word, but like Susie, I hear everything you're saying, but I need you to understand that the tone that you're saying it is turning me off right now. Yep. Like I can't, I can't have this conversation with how you're coming at me.

Dr. Jen Fry 23:45

Yep.

Dan Mickle 23:45

Like that's a teachable moment, as opposed to the coach just saying, we're not going to talk about this, or it's not good, you know, non-negotiable, and they just walk away.

Dr. Jen Fry 23:53

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. 100%. Because the the kid, the parents don't have the skills, the kids don't have the skills. They might come from a household where all you do is cry and scream. So that's all they know what to do, versus being able to say, I understand you're frustrated, but you can't have that tone with me. I want to hear what you're saying, but we can't have that conversation. And you understand that the pendulum is going to swing. And I don't know, I just whenever people push out the immediacy of the you're being disrespectful, that bothers me. Because I think sometimes it's not disrespect. You just don't know how to navigate someone who is assertive or speaking up for themselves. And so it's easy when you're a person in power to throw out the you're being disrespectful, so I don't have to talk to you. I think it limits a lot of conversation because the the welding of the disrespectful sword is really meant to silence someone, and there's no learning opportunity from that. Because it's like you're not telling me how I was quote unquote disrespectful. You're just saying I'm doing this thing, but there's no behaviors attached to even know what I need to change.

Dan Mickle 25:04

Right. Is it is it the messaging? Is it the tone? Is it my body language? Like, I think yeah, and again, going back to the car ride, all those are cues. Right? Like, I think we can have those car ride conversations as long as we're looking at the cues. What's the body language of your kid in the car? What's the tone with the kid in the car? You'll know how to direct that conversation, you know. But but sometimes you're right, sometimes they just need support. Sometimes they actually want direction. You know, sometimes the kid's not getting the coaching that they want from the coach. So they want that car ride. Like, dad, tell me what I'm doing wrong. You know, like when I I I remember this moment distinctly when when Morgan was 10 and she was getting ready to try out for the U12 because we didn't have anything below that at the time. I said, Look, we need to set this conversation right now, and this is what it's going to be your whole career, unless something drastic happens. Right now, you pick, am I dad or am I coach when we talk? And she flat said, I want you as dad, not as coach. So all our conversations have always been centered around how I feel as dad and her as my daughter, and not me as a volleyball coach, and how she is as a volleyball player. Um, now there have been times that she's like, Hey, what do you think about my technique? This, or why do you think the coach did that? But but our main our main thing is we keep it separated that when we talk, it's it's mainly father-daughter.

Dr. Jen Fry 26:38

But I think also you're a former

When Parents Give Bad Advice

Dr. Jen Fry 26:40

coach. Some a lot of these parents don't have that that ability to give the technical stuff. And I think in some aspects it can be, I don't know if the word is dangerous, but it can be problematic where they're giving skill knowledge and it's not the right thing. So I'm gonna push back on that, right? Like they a lot of these parents are should there be a coach or should it just be the parent? Because they don't have the knowledge there, you know, if their daughter's like, what's my problem? And they're like, Oh, you just need to get lower, but it's not lower, it's the fact that she's not moving her feet and gets jammed up with her platform. Should we have that?

Dan Mickle 27:16

No, no, and and I'm glad you bring that up because that's kind of what I wanted to segue into was it's almost like, would you ask, like, like, would you have that conversation in your car about your health, like like legitimate health concerns, like asking your spouse, hey, my heart has this murmur going on. What do you think's going on? Right?

Dr. Jen Fry 27:37

Did I tell you a funny story about something like that, real quick?

Dan Mickle 27:39

Yeah.

Dr. Jen Fry 27:40

So my mom had a friend who her, she was better friends with the husband than the wife, but she was still friends with the wife. And I went to school with the wife's kids or the the girlfriend's kids. And the girlfriend had put on Facebook, and it was something like, you know, so-and-so is having heart problems, but he won't go to the hospital, he won't listen to me. And I remember posting, being like, if you don't take him to the hospital right now, you're being fucking ridiculous. Like you're posting this on Facebook. She takes him to the hospital, and it turns out to be a big heart problem. He needs to be airlifted to Tucson. Like it was a massive heart issue. And I was like, like just what you said. You're there, you're talking about this thing. No one else has the knowledge, and you're wanting us take him to the hospital. And that's the same thing as we see so many parents who are like, My kid has a fifth-degree ankle sprain. What do y'all think I should do?

Dan Mickle 28:36

Go to the doctor. That's what you should do. Why are you asking us? Oh my god, there are there are very few things that get me fired up on Facebook as much as that. Like, my kid torn her meniscus, but I think she could play. Oh, okay, Dr. So-and-so.

Dr. Jen Fry 28:50

Like, or they'll be like, or they'll say, My kid tore their meniscus. The doctor said they need to wait eight weeks, but what do you all think?

Dan Mickle 29:00

What? Right. Yeah, I um to to go back to your original point. No, you're 100% right that like it's it's different because I'm a coach of the sport and my kid. My point is the parent then needs to learn how to direct that conversation on how to advocate and how to teach their kid to find those answers. Yes. I don't know why you're not passing. I don't know why they push you to the corner of the court. Here's how I would approach it with the coach. Maybe these are some of the questions you should ask. But that's not what happens. They give their opinion. Well, you know, you're too slow or your platform's too high, but they've never played volleyball in their life. So I think again, it goes back to the car ride. The car ride home part is fine, but we just we have to understand how to have those conversations.

Dr. Jen Fry 29:52

We need to, and to not then say, I just think it's um they're just playing favorites. It's all politics. The amount that it's favorites or politics, I know you think that the coach is being paid off by the Joneses. I know you think that. Because then the parents giving their knowledge and it's not gonna help. And now it could be in maybe direct opposition of the coach. And if you thought your kid wasn't playing before, you're giving direction directly oppositional knowledge, they're probably not gonna even play even more. And so, how do we just have that conversation of like push them back to the coach? Have them ask the because not the conversation of what do I need to do to be on the court? No, have the actual conversation of what do I need to work on, or better yet, which I know a lot of athletes are super uncomfortable with. How do I beat out that person for the position? That scares, especially girls, that scares them crapless. You want to know not just how to get on the court, but you want to know maybe how to play that position. You need to know what do I need to beat out that athlete. And they put them together, have information.

Dan Mickle 31:11

You want to talk about putting people in uncomfortable situations.

Competing For Spots The Drumline Rule

Dan Mickle 31:15

This was one of the changes I made probably two years ago at the college team. I just you're gonna make so much fun of me for this. I just got watching the movie Drumline. Now, as a former drummer, I was into it. Yeah, yeah, totally into it. But one of the things that literally was like a light bulb moment was in that movie, if you wanted to take the next spot up, you had to go up and challenge that person, right? So, so two years ago I started in our college gym. If you want a starting spot or you're unhappy with your playing time, you need to go up and tap the person that you think they're better of and tell them that they're coming for your spot.

Dr. Jen Fry 32:06

But you're coming for their spot.

Dan Mickle 32:08

Yep. Yep. Don't come and tell me that you think you deserve it. Don't come and tell me that you're doing all the work. Susie, I want you to go up to Jen, tap her on the shoulder, and say, Hey, I'm coming to take your spot next week. If you're not willing to do that, then I don't want you in that spot.

Dr. Jen Fry 32:30

What happened with that?

Dan Mickle 32:33

It got catty, but everyone got better. Like, like because my whole point is if you want it, you go grab it. I'm not giving it to you.

Dr. Jen Fry 32:44

And you're not gonna do it behind closed doors.

Dan Mickle 32:46

No. I don't call it like I don't call the whole team and say, hey, we got a challenge. Just I'm just saying that you need to let that person know, I think I'm better than you, and I'm gonna take your spot. Because that's what it comes down to, right? 100%. If I have three players and I only have two starting spots, and you're saying I deserve to be out there because I'm working hard. And I'm not doubting, you may work hard. That doesn't mean the other two aren't working hard and getting better either. But who do you think you're better of? Well, I think I'm better than her. Then you go tell her.

Dr. Jen Fry 33:22

So there's a black comedian, his name is Kev on stage, and he talks about, and I was read, I'm reading his book, and it's it's it's really good. And he talks about this moment when he is like managing all the writers for um all deaf under Russell Simmons, and that there are these two other writers who are consistently complaining about him, they want his job, so they're trying everything. And he says he walks into the room, and the two writers are there with Russell Simmons, and Russell Simmons is like, what y'all gotta say? You you said you you think he's doing a bad job, and all Max is like, No, no, no, I I would never say that. And he was like, Before you said that this man wasn't doing X, Y, and Z. Go on and say it. And how they immediately backpedaled when it was brought to light. And so it's very ballsy to say, I want your position, or what do I need to do to be number one? What do I need to do to get that center spot? But if you want to be the starting center and you're not willing to do that, maybe you're not willing to do the starting, be the starting center then.

Dan Mickle 34:27

Right, right. Like it's not, and and as the if I was the person above, I want that. I want that person pushing me. Like, oh, they're coming from my spot. I gotta work.

Dr. Jen Fry 34:38

Well, that's what Courtney Thompson. When Courtney Thompson years ago at the uh when she was player of the year, she thanked the setter, the second setter for always pushing her. She thanked her, and that's a key. You have to be pushed. Okay, we got two minutes.

Where To Find Dan And Closing

Dr. Jen Fry 34:52

Um, I appreciate this conversation. Right now, my book, Before You Blame the Coach, is in pre-sale. Go on genfry talks.com or genfriedalks youthsports.com to pre-order it in ePUB or in paperback. You will get a goodie with it. I'm not gonna tell you what, but you will get, especially if you pre-order the paperback and it comes directly from my house, you will get a gift. And so order the book, order it for your team, your staff, your parents, all of that. Dan, where can people find you?

Dan Mickle 35:27

Uh on all social media platforms at real danmickle.

Dr. Jen Fry 35:31

Is there a fake Dan Mickle? Is there someone that's been?

Dan Mickle 35:34

I don't know. I think that's how I know I made it. If there's a fake Dan Mickle. Not not Dan at not Dan Mickle. Um and Danmickle.com for the website.

Dr. Jen Fry 35:47

Why do I have to hype you up? So you need to go to the website to sign up for his newsletter. Can they sign up there?

Dan Mickle 35:53

They can sign up there.

Dr. Jen Fry 35:54

It's a really good newsletter. I don't say that much about his work and it pains me, but I enjoy reading his newsletter.

Dan Mickle 36:02

And I I too, conveniently in my background, have my book.

Dr. Jen Fry 36:06

Yes, you didn't mention it.

Dan Mickle 36:08

Which is um daily, it's daily, it's like a daily devotional, but for athletes. Has a little story, a little quote, and a little journal prompt every day, 365 for topics for everything from leadership to commitment to work ethic.

Dr. Jen Fry 36:26

Where do you where do they find the book to buy it?

Dan Mickle 36:28

Amazon. Everything on Amazon or my website, you can get it from there.

Dr. Jen Fry 36:32

Okay, get it from there. And he does session work. And because he y'all need help mentally, your athletes need help mentally. So, quickly, what do you do for that?

Dan Mickle 36:44

Uh, I do monthly subscriptions, one session a month, two sessions a month, three sessions a month, Zoom sessions, um, where I work one-on-one with athletes, everything from you know confidence to anxiety to um neurodivergent aspects of their life if they're a neurodivergent athlete. And just really my goal is to make good people better.

Dr. Jen Fry 37:05

He is a former, well, current current college coach, former club director, for former club coach. He has done it all since '92. He is old. So he has extensive amounts of time doing this work. And so he is worth a sweatshirt and the asay bowl. Because that's essentially what it's costing you is a sweatshirt and an essay.

Dan Mickle 37:28

Yeah, you pass up one of those amazing hoodies at one of the tournaments you're going to, and you can have a session.

Dr. Jen Fry 37:33

Yeah, the the hoodie that they're gonna lose. Like let's be honest here.

Dan Mickle 37:37

Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Jen Fry 37:38

Yeah, okay, the real Dan Mickle. I appreciate the conversation.

Dan Mickle 37:42

Thank you as always, and I can't wait to do this again.

Dr. Jen Fry 37:45

Yes. Friends, I hope this episode helped you. If it did, please like, follow, and share it with another sport parent, coach, or athlete. If you're ready to go deeper, please order my book before you blame the coach. Head over to my website, Genfry Talks2 Sports.com or Amazon. And if your team, club, or organization wants to build stronger conflict skills for parents, coaches, administrators, and athletes, let's connect. I'm Dr. Genfry, and I'll see you next time on Five with Fry.